TubeNet

Posted: **Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:12 pm**

I have heard a rumor that Hirsbrunner's quality has been suffering as of late due to outsourced parts. Any truth?
Are all the subs built in Switz?

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:12 am**

As a Hirsbrunner owner...I believe they are fantastic horns. I played many different horns before I bought by HB-21, I bought it because it has a tremendous and wonderful sound. Hirsbrunners have ALWAYS been known for their quality and support. Many professionals have become famous for the use of their horns. I dont believe for a second that they would cut back in their quality like that. I would say go ahead and try it out for yourself...because ultimatley, it's YOU who makes the decision about what you want to play. Viel SpaÃŸ. -Joe

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:46 am**

TubaTuck wrote:I'll bet you don't have to get the valves on a NEW piston 'Brunner worked on...at least not to remedy a "sticking" problem!

Don't be too sure. I know a top orchestral player who almost gave up on his handmade Yorkbrunner because one of the valves kept sticking at inopportune moments. The main reason they are so expensive is that people will pay those prices. I doubt the craftsmanship is better than, say, Rudolf Meinl, whose instruments are far less expensive.

Regarding the sound, I have noted two different sounds producted by Hirsbrunners. The rotary tubas of in-house design have always sounded tubby to me, dark to the point of being woofy. The piston tubas are varying degrees of copies of York tubas, and have a livelier, sweeter sound. It's a friendly, engaging sound, but it's not the Power Sound you get from an Alexander. I disagree with Wade in that it is not a Yamaha vanilla sound--the good Yorkbrunners have a lot of color in the sound.

Alexanders are Germanic to the core. They produce a full-bodied sound that is dark without losing color, and they are quite versatile for highly skilled professionals who know how to steer them. But they are a lot of work, and I have that on the experience of several top orchestra pros.

Rick "who prefers a deep, open sound with lots of color" Denney

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:20 pm**

Rick Denney wrote:....I have noted two different sounds producted by Hirsbrunners. The rotary tubas of in-house design have always sounded tubby to me, dark to the point of being woofy.

Hi Rick, I'm just curious, what do you mean by "in-house design"?

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:56 pm**

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:Hi Rick, I'm just curious, what do you mean by "in-house design"?

I meant the tubas they made that were not copies of Yorks--the stuff they made for their traditional European market. The description is probably all outdated now--I formed my opinions many years ago and haven't updated them in recent years.

And I should exclude their F's from my opinions. I played a Hirsbrunner F tuba that really, really impressed me. Then, I looked at the price, and it impressed me some more, but in a different way.

Rick "thinking design is still more important than craftsmanship" Denney

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:34 pm**

the elephant wrote:.....My short affair with my HB 2 was horrible.

I'm sorry that you did not enjoy your encounter with that HB-2.

Just as an alternate opinion, I am very satisfied with the way the HB-2 that I play, sounds.

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:44 pm**

To the original poster...a word of caution to take with a grain of salt any strong opinions voiced in this thread (including mine).

As far as valve sets go, Hirsbrunner valves were being made by Nirschl, at least when my tuba was made. I don't think Nirschl is making them for Meinl-Weston. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. As for problems with Hirsbrunner valves, problems are probably more attributable to things like player technique (some guys just put more wear on their valves!), valve guide condition or dirt/deposits (lack of thorough maintenance by the owner). The two HB's I've owned had flawless valves! You could push them as slowly as you liked and there wouldn't be a hitch/catch in the motion at all. Pistons on lots of other brands of tuba (esp. Yamaha)...I can't say the same.

I'm not sure of the percentage of outsourcing done at Hirsbrunner for all other parts, but I know that it is not uncommon in the brass instrument world. I don't think it's a big deal.

I don't think at all that quality is being sacrificed at Hirsbrunner. I had the privilege, while living in Switzerland, to visit the Hirsbrunner factory several times. Peter is an excellent craftsman and a straight-shooter. He's not going to put out anything that doesn't meet a certain standard.

As for the perceived "quality of instruments" issue...I think there is a factor here that is not being considered, and that's the popularity issue. Hirsbrunner was so popular for so long and it's been passed lately by the PT-6, the new Miraphones and Gronitz in terms of how popular the horns are. It has nothing to do with quality, but a lot with who plays them, who's winning jobs with them and so on.

You can take issue with the sound of a horn all you like, but that does not mean the quality is any less.

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:43 pm**

the elephant wrote:An Alexander 163 or 164 that was "pitch corrected" and built by HB. That would make me very excited about spending lots of money. The taper of the old Alex's was not too well matched with the wrap and caused many of the problems these horns usually have with intonation. The other, more personal problems of each individual, older Alexander tuba may often be due to really bad construction.

So, again, an HB-made 163 or 164 would just suck the money from my account against my will! I would have to own it (in the same manner that I have to play the tuba in the first place)!

I love HB quality. I think that HB design yields mediocre results that are equalled or exceeded by many other brands. Don't let the pretty silver plate fool you. There are many other tubas available these days for far less money that will take you a long way in your musical life.

Great post. Even though I like the HB 2, you have some great things to say.

Posted: **Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:29 am**

the elephant wrote:I am sick of people asking about how horns play.

Aw, Wade, you need a pat answer. Such as:

"Well, you put your mouth on the mouthpiece and blow a raspberry. If you push down the valve thingies, it changes."

Posted: **Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:22 pm**

the elephant wrote:I was JOKING. My post was an attempt to make Mike laugh. The "plastic tubing" bit was me implying that they *might* have decided that the plastic rotors were a good enough idea that they *might* consider making the entire tuba from plastic.

There is no such product as BrunnerTiteÂ® glue, either, for all of you Google Meisters out there

And it did, Wade!

sorry I've been MIA for a couple of days, nor did I imagine that this would stir up so much, but I gotta agree about concept of sound!

Posted: **Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:26 pm**

the elephant wrote:
I would hardly blink an eye about BBb if I had the Fafner with the fancy bell.

Wade,

I'm just vaguely familiar with the Fahner. What is the "fancy bell"? Are there different bells available?

Posted: **Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:24 pm**

the elephant wrote:195/2:
bows made of sheet metal

As opposed to what, Wade? Carving them out of a solid block of brass? Investment casting?

Must have lost something in the translation.

Posted: **Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:30 pm**

the elephant wrote:I am sick of people asking about how horns play. If you are serious about getting one and have the money then you are a moron if you do not take a freaking trip to test as many differing types of tubas as you can. Again, I do not mean to offend said morons, but that is my opinion. Honestly. Really. If that pisses off people then too bad.

You do realize, of course, that your description of the Hirsbrunner and mine, once we clarified our terms (woofy, and referring to Hirsbrunner in-house designs and not to borrowed proven designs), was nearly the same?

And if I came to that conclusion as a bonehead amateur, while you came to that conclusion as an accomplished pro, then maybe it is possible to describe how an instrument sounds?

I'm not sick of people asking how horns play. I'm more sick of people justifying their horns based on what others say about them, rather than on finding words to describe their own perspectives and values.

I like my Holton because it has zip in the sound. There's a little edge and with the right mouthpiece no hint of woofiness. But while being colorful it is not bright or blatty. The sounds is open, deep, and resonant. It is a uniquely American sound, even with me playing it.

I like the Fafner because it has a big, commanding sound with mountains of projection and core harmonic content. It punches through more than the Holton.

Both are easy to play in that they produce a big product compared to the input.

Now, I think those descriptions are sufficient to lead a person towards or away from those instruments depending on their objectives, and they are not in the least motivated by any form of justification. I paid more for the Holton than most new BBb tubas, and it is rather battered. I wouldn't have done it if that smile hadn't appeared on my face (after playing a single low Bb). But it was what others had said about the Holton that got me to the store in the first place. I really wasn't in the market.

What drives me batty are descriptions such as..."This tuba rocks!" or "Just get a Rickophone and be done with it." There have been lots of those descriptions on the forums over the years. They earn zero consideration from me. And that's the problem with most requests for information about how an instrument plays--one has to weed through many personal justifications, especially when the instruments in question are outrageously expensive.

It also drives me batty when people who are spending their parents' money go shopping for a Hirsbrunner, just because it is "the best". Most of them would produce a better product with a Miraphone 186. I suspect that is also motivating your own battiness.

I particular love the requests such as, "I'm considering a Yorkbrunner, a PT-4, and a Miraphone 191. Which would be better?" I'm thinking the correct answer is, "no".

Rick "thinking there is room for well-described, well-reasoned testimonial based on personal experience" Denney

Posted: **Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:41 pm**

Jonathantuba wrote:...while the 195/2 has entirely hand hammered bows which provides greater consistency of thickness .

From my own inspection of older instruments, this seems to be due mostly to the workmen using heavier brass for the handworked bows, allowing them to be very liberal and selective with sanding. I suspect that hydraulic-formed bottom bows could use the same approach.

Rick, do you have any insight on this?

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:14 am**

Chuck(G) wrote:Rick, do you have any insight on this?

I like Makita, but I generally prefer Porter Cable.

I have heard, but do not know for myself that Miraphone's hand-hammered bottom bows will show strange ripples if de-dented using a Ferree's machine. The story goes that this is because the ripples from hammering were sanded smooth on the outside, but not on the inside.

And I know that run-of-the-mill B&S instruments, at least until recently, had hand-hammered bottom bows as a matter of routine. One often finds old-world techniques in the second-world factories.

The Fafner I played was wonderful. I tried not to hammer on the bottom bow.

Rick "incapable of distinguishing between great and slightly greater" Denney

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:17 am**

harold wrote:My bet is that there is far more inconsistancy in a hand hammered bow than there is in one that is hydraulically pressed.

I would not take that bet.

But I'm not sure it's important. What may be more important is residual stress, and hydraulic forming will leave residual stresses to a much greater degree than hand hammering. That could affect the resonance of the brass, which might have a subtle affect on the coloration of the sound. Maybe.

Rick "thinking nothing is more consistent than Yamaha hydraulicly formed instruments" Denney

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:52 pm**

Of course, how tight the whole thing is forced into a jig and soldered together has an effect as well. Several well known tuba brands were known for braces popping due to all the stress. Although not to that extreme, my 1290 seemed to play better after tensions were relieved in the bottom bow and bell, but a back to back A/B playtest was obviously impossible.

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:47 pm**

I find it interesting that in the 45 (now 46) replies, only one has addressed the original question. Just in case anyone has forgotten, the original question was has the quality of Hirsbrunner instruments declined over the years.

So my answer is yes. I bought an HB 2 new in 1982. It functioned beautifully right out of the box. It was built like a tank, the bracing was very sturdy and there were no assembly flaws whatsoever. The valves worked flawlessly (yes, it had plastic valves, and no, they did not stick when it was hot) and the slides were aligned perfectly and moved smoothly.

I haven't seen a new HB 2 in many years so the comparison may not be totally accurate. The new Hirsbrunners that I have played were almost all HB 21's and usually at conventions. They almost always had problems with sticky valves (maybe convention gunk) and the slides were way out of whack. The bracing was flimsy and the horns were lighter than I remembered.

There ya go (notice that I did not comment on playing or sound characteristics, construction techniques, inotnation or the cost.)

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:30 pm**

Ed Jones wrote:I find it interesting that in the 45 (now 46) replies, only one has addressed the original question. Just in case anyone has forgotten, the original question was has the quality of Hirsbrunner instruments declined over the years.

Tubenet would be pretty boring if all we did was stay on topic, heh, heh.

All the original topic did was allow us to have a meeting of the Anti-Snob Snobs. That was more fun, especially the part where Wade went nuts. Think of what you'd have to pay to see that.

Rick "a charter A.S.S." Denney

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:55 pm**

soup nazi wrote:No soup for you! *snap*