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This question comes up from time to time, but there's no way to answer it.

Jacobs and Bell developed their playing styles on the basis of the world in which they grew up. If they were on the audition circuit today, they would have grown up in a different world and would have developed their concepts and styles accordingly.

I don't think of Jacobs's sound as being less "bright" than modern performers. I do think of it as having a little more growl to it and a little less smoothness, and frankly I like it. But I suspect his musicality would stand up to modern standards and likely exceed them. I wonder how many modern players work as hard at solfege as he did.

Rick "who thinks audition committees listen more for musicality than for sound" Denney

Ah, yes, but would they win if the tuba hadn't been invented yet and man had evolved from dolphins?

I'll stay away from the main question, but instead go after the other question about orchestra hiring players with a "brighter" sound. I think the brighter sounds are picked because of their clarity. Clarity is a big issue, and hard to acheive on some of the big modern equipment. I've played on both sides of the street and can say that when I played with a big dark sound my articulations weren't clear at all. But now I've brightened my sound and the clarity has drastically improved.

Just my thoughts...

Speaking of AJ's sound, Rick Denney commented:

I do think of it as having a little more growl to it and a little less smoothness, and frankly I like it.

I complimented a friend on the cleanliness of his sound as he played 1812 Overture and other warhorses in an orchestra concert on his PT-6. He appreciated the comment, but added that some have criticized him for having "too clean" a sound.

Discounting passages that specifically call for growls or special effects, if one plays tuba musically, is it really possible to have too clean a sound?

bloke wrote:I just did. If these gentlemen (in their prime) were magically transplanted in time and space with their actual techniques accepted during the decades of their lifetimes, they would get nowhere. If they were both born in 1960-1970 and applied themselves just as voraciously as they did during their own lifetimes under the tutelage of modern brass players, they would probably do as well as anyone and likely accel.

...and if Albert Schweitzer were magically transplanted to today with his current level of training, he'd flunk his medical boards.

Musical tastes evolve and change. People aren't like isolated pieces of gravel in concrete; they're a product of their times. Does Curtis still award tuba scholarships to 15-year-olds? Would a more promising student have gained entrance to Curtis if it hadn't been during the Great Depression?

Would Jacobs have gotten the CSO job if the opening hadn't occured during WWII? What if he'd been drafted?

Let's just appreciate these men for what they were when they were.

Chuck "pointless exercise in speculation"(G)

...Language that could easily made superfluous if only Music Directors were the sterling judges of musical character that their agents and boards maintain they are!

And it is not the first year being a pprobationary period that makes much ado about nothing. The LAST thing you want to do is have someone relocate for nothing, and then have to go through the whole thing over again if the first year doesn't work out!

Steve Marcus wrote:is it really possible to have too clean a sound?

Don't confuse clarity of musical purpose with smoothness of acoustic spectra. That's like photographers spending thousands for the state-of-the-art in ultra-sharp optics and still making pictures with no purpose and a lot of visual clutter.

On the other hand, a photograph can be downright gritty with grain and still be absolutely clear.

Rick "who also does not confuse growl and edge" Denney

One point to bring up is what would be the standards for an orchestral tubist if it were not for Bell and Jacobs? Would other great players emerge or would it go back to the time no one really expected a tuba to sound great in a symphony orchestra. Would the next generations of players be as good as they are today?

To the question of would either of them pass an audition, I cannot speak for Mr Bell but Mr Jacobs commented many times that he doubted if he would pass an audition today. Part of this is due to the numbers of applicants. He thought committees were more interested in finding a way to eliminate a player than hearing the positive elements of their playing. He also stated that the best candidate is not always the one to win an audition.

And to take hypothetical situations even a step further, where would a modern Bell or Jacobs even be without the ACTUAL Bell or Jacobs preceding them?

windshieldbug wrote:And to take hypothetical situations even a step further, where would a modern Bell or Jacobs even be without the ACTUAL Bell or Jacobs preceding them?

Mike, that's a more interesting question if carried out a bit more. What if the tuba didn't find acceptance as a band instrument, but rather became strictly the province of the orchestra? Would an orchestral tuba not be a 6/4 monster? What would it be keyed in? Would there be more than one tuba player? Would the tuba be developed for a brighter sound, more like a bass trombone or oversized English baritone horn?

Chuck, my god man, get real; even the Db piccolo and contabassoon found places in the band!

But the trombone section of an orchetra has been sliding more towards the tuba for years. The Bass Trombone already uses an Eb-style mouthpiece, the bores have become as much as possible like the pre-1900's Eb, and the oft-used F attachment WAS the preferred tuba key of that time.

In fact, even the bore profiles of the trumpets has become more tuba-like. A better question might be: Would orchestras have lasted so long without the tuba?

windshieldbug wrote:But the trombone section of an orchetra has been sliding more towards the tuba for years. The Bass Trombone already uses an Eb-style mouthpiece, the bores have become as much as possible like the pre-1900's Eb, and the oft-used F attachment WAS the preferred tuba key of that time.

...and in the process, the sound's become broader, louder and harder to control. I for one, wouldn't mind it if the orchestra did a turnabout and moved back toward the peashooters. I know the wire choir wouldn't mind one bit.

Maybe, but we could always guage how well we were doing by how far the violas pushed their chairs forward: tangible measurement in an intangible medium!

windshieldbug wrote:Maybe, but we could always guage how well we were doing by how far the violas pushed their chairs forward: tangible measurement in an intangible medium!

Ah, but there's a limit to that measurement, old chum! What does one do when Maestro falls off the front of the stage?

Yeah, I know--Cheer!

Chuck(G) wrote:Ah, but there's a limit to that measurement, old chum! What does one do when Maestro falls off the front of the stage?

No problem: With all that flapping around, the Maestro's bound to fly!

*pray for the ride tonight*

Perhaps a better question: Which of the active players today could have performed as well with Chicago in the 1950's?[/quote]

definitely..could someone today support a section like Jacobs did in his time?

bloke wrote:85% of today's "active [brass] players" (if magically transported back into the 1950's into a professional American orchestra) would immediately file greivances about how they are treated and how they are *paid. They would be laughed at and immediately fired. Further, they would constantly be told to "Stop blasting"

I doubt it. People go into this line of work because they are driven to do it. Nobody I know ever worried about "how much they were gunna make", or for "how long". When there are so many qualified applicants trying out every position, no matter how small, I'm sure that they would do what they needed to do to keep playing!

Bloke's comment=people who already have jobs
Windshieldbug's comment=people trying to get a job