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I am going to invest in some repair tools to begin working on my horns. What tools do think would be necessary to begin basic tuba-sousa' repair? Mandrels, Dent Balls, Dent rods...?

Thanks for any info.[/quote]

Believe it or not, I believe that Ferree's has a list for you--somewhere on their very large web site:

http://www.ferreestools.com/

I was lucky enough to find a used Z-60 (Ferree's dent machine) with lots of related tooling, several sets of dent balls, and a collection of mandrels and rods when an existing shop went out of business. I spent an additional $10,000 (plus) of an engine lathe, wash tanks, buffing equipment, a set of expansion mandrels, an assortment of tool-steel rods for trombone work, burnishing tools, rollers, air-acetelyene equipment, magnetic tools, and other assorted goodies and tools. I followed that up with all the specialty brass dent tools Ferree's has... including trombone slide rollers. I just spent another $300 on a set of trumpet/cornet mandrels. Just about every cent I have made over the last three years has gone for more tools. I like to think that I have a pretty well equipped one-man shop. However... GUESS WHAT??? No matter what tools I have, there are always more that I need.

You can do a lot with just a set of dent balls but it takes a heckofalot more work than having just the right tools.

You can do a lot with a propane torch, a hammer, a hacksaw, and a chunk of lead. Some steel rods and/or pipes with various diameters can also be useful. Also find some needlenose pliers and a good vise. Avoid any vice, however.
(But AD-vice is ok.)

I have not worked on tubas, but I have worked on electric guitars, including the re-routing of the body, neck modifications, etc. I do not have any formal training, whether schooled or apprenticed, just reading and trial-and-error. If you are serious about working on your own, please seriously consider at least one of two options: 1) (as I did) buy an inexpensive junker or beginner instrument that it will not matter when you make a serious mistake, whether tuba, euph or such, so you can practice at soldering, dent removal, basic taking it apart and putting it back together, etc., until you get some proficiency before you go diving into a good instrument, or 2) take a course at a nearby university/trade school for the basics.

I strongly suggest (as someone posted above) that you get some good training. If I could do it all over again that's the way I'd go. I just had some ideas on building tubas when I started and rather crudely put them into practice. Now I'm working with a pro brass technician who trained at Redwing in Minnesota and has put in 20 years of work at the bench. She (yes, a woman brass tech) has made a vast difference in the quality of work coming out of our shop. If you can't take the time to get the knowledge and skills at least start with junk to work on, so you don't screw up anything that might be potentially a worthwhile player ie. vintage York, Holton, Conn, King, Buescher.
FWIW

Thanks for all of your great responses. I was an apprentice repair tech working on small brass in a shop for a year...then they moved out of town. I'm looking for another gig, but want to do tuba/euph work at home. I have enough horns to keep me busy for a while, but, I just need some "tuba tools". If I could find a used dent machine...

John Caves wrote:I am going to invest in some repair tools to begin working on my horns. What tools do think would be necessary to begin basic tuba-sousa' repair? Mandrels, Dent Balls, Dent rods...?

Thanks for any info.

Parts suppliers' contact info
Instrument repair books
Soldering/Welding books
Oxy-Acetylene tanks, regulators
Little torch & tips (Smith Equipment)
Small soldering vise
Solders & fluxes
Emery cloth assortment
Dremel tools
Scribes
Micrometers (Outside, Inside, & Depth)
Telescoping gages
Depth gages
Metric & American thread gages
Metric & American taps & dies
Assorted tap & die wrenches
Child's wading pool (for driveway/backyard chem cleaning)
Assorted water hoses & fittings (for flushing out after cleaning)
Gun bore cleaning brushes
Slide pulling pliers
Dental picks
Jewelers' files
Scrapers & burr tools
Conn magnetic dent remover
Assorted hammers
Punches (Center, Drift)
Assorted pliers
Assorted vice grips & water-pump pliers

I recommend a visit to your local Harbor Freight for a variety of hand and power tools, drills, vises. Harbor Freight can be habit-forming and addictive.

Ferree's Tools is great.

Dean E wrote:

John Caves wrote:I am going to invest in some repair tools to begin working on my horns. What tools do think would be necessary to begin basic tuba-sousa' repair? Mandrels, Dent Balls, Dent rods...?

Thanks for any info.

Parts suppliers' contact info
Instrument repair books
Soldering/Welding books
Oxy-Acetylene tanks, regulators
Little torch & tips (Smith Equipment)
Small soldering vise
Solders & fluxes
Emery cloth assortment
Dremel tools
Scribes
Micrometers (Outside, Inside, & Depth)
Telescoping gages
Depth gages
Metric & American thread gages
Metric & American taps & dies
Assorted tap & die wrenches
Child's wading pool (for driveway/backyard chem cleaning)
Assorted water hoses & fittings (for flushing out after cleaning)
Gun bore cleaning brushes
Slide pulling pliers
Dental picks
Jewelers' files
Scrapers & burr tools
Conn magnetic dent remover
Assorted hammers
Punches (Center, Drift)
Assorted pliers
Assorted vice grips & water-pump pliers

I recommend a visit to your local Harbor Freight for a variety of hand and power tools, drills, vises. Harbor Freight can be habit-forming and addictive.

Ferree's Tools is great.

Not so much as a dent ball set or even a Fast Eddie in the lot!

Chuck(G) wrote: Not so much as a dent ball set or even a Fast Eddie in the lot!

You're right, Chuck. Dent balls are mandatory but pricey. Never heard of Fast Eddie. He doesn't seem to live on Google. Any relation to Mr. Slim Jim?

I did leave out critical hand tools and supplies:

John Caves wrote:What tools do think would be necessary to begin basic tuba-sousa' repair?

(OK, I know I'm an a@@hole, but there it was; low, slow, and over the plate... )

Dean E wrote:Never heard of Fast Eddie.

A fast Eddie is like a rolling pin on an extended shaft. You clamp the shaft in a dent-rod vice, and use the fast Eddie to roll out dents in bells. It's a really handy tool for cleaning up a bell. Made and sold by Ferree's.

Rick "who thinks it's useful even for those who don't have dent balls or a Z60" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

Dean E wrote:Never heard of Fast Eddie.

A fast Eddie is like a rolling pin on an extended shaft. You clamp the shaft in a dent-rod vice, and use the fast Eddie to roll out dents in bells. It's a really handy tool for cleaning up a bell. Made and sold by Ferree's.

Rick "who thinks it's useful even for those who don't have dent balls or a Z60" Denney

Rick, I know that Ferree's has rollers like the Fast Eddie, but the original was made and sold by Ed Strege of Badger State (who I think still sells them).

Votaw also sells a very nice oversize version that I've been salivating over:

http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=pr ... c=jnopoqj0

I live in the same metropolitan area where Votaw makes his tools. Absolutely superlative in all aspects. He started out as a repairman, made his own tools when either there weren't any out there to do the particular job he needed to do, or was dissatisfied with what was available. Over time, he realized he could make more of an impact (double entendre intended) and, well let's be real, make more money with less headaches selling the tools he developed than just repairing horns. The rest is history in the making.

Dean E wrote:

Chuck(G) wrote: Not so much as a dent ball set or even a Fast Eddie in the lot!

Never heard of Fast Eddie. He doesn't seem to live on Google.

Even though I have four different sizes of rollers... including the nifty tapered one for small bells, I am currently yearning for a set of these that Ferree's offers:



Maybe someone will get them for me for my birthday next week!

John Caves wrote:I am going to invest in some repair tools to begin working on my horns. What tools do think would be necessary to begin basic tuba-sousa' repair? Mandrels, Dent Balls, Dent rods...?

Thanks for any info.

Great, its good to see someone with such ambition!

Well, hmm.... I guess the only thing I can suggest is some of the basics. Don't kid yourself thinking you're going to pick this up real fast, it's going to take time. First, got a good safe place to work with lighting and room? Working on brass instruments can get messy and has been known to burn down a building or two. You need to be safe. Get your self a good heavy apron, disposable dust masks and a good pair of SAFETY GLASSES!

lots of good and interesting suggestions made so far, I will do my best to add what I can.

Simple hand tools such as good quality rawhide hammers, mallets, ball-peans, wire cutters, square-jaw pliers, a good assortment of screw-drivers, files, grinding disks and arbors, razor blades, etc are a good place to start. A decent bench motor is a good handy tool to have and was one of the best investments I could have made the first year I started working on the bench. Also get a bar of tripoli and white-diamond compound and a spool of wicking for strapping your solder work.

You are going to need to get a feel for the basics and the basics don't call for the use or need of a dent machine. You need to learn how to solder and how to do it well. My starting point was with the torch (Prestolite or Goss), acetylene and air set up. This is the simplest and in my opinion, the best for the job - propane is not hot enough for the work we are doing. 70/30 lead-tin solder and Nokorode paste flux, get some flux brushes too, they're cheap. Get the best assortment of torch heads, large and small. You can silver-solder with this set up for now, if you need to but in time an oxy-acetylene outfit will be a good addition.

You are going to need to learn how to perform basic dent removal. A simple "Fast Eddie" type roller will do fine, Ferrees makes a long one that is more versatile and can be used on all sizes of bells with less risk of slipping over the edges and putting creases in the bell. The knuckle rods and all the other smaller dent rods and balls would be the next thing to get, they are used to remove dents in valve casing ports and slide crooks. I would suggest the basic small Ferrees 101 dent barrel set and a standard non-adjustable Roth tool from SW with additional 16 and 19 gage binding wire. Standard burnishers and dent hammers from Ferrees are another thing that should be first on the list. You can get roller type burnishers later, when you can afford them and have a good enough feel for the work that you are able to use them properly and with good effect.

Because it is best to start working on small brass instruments, I would suggest the standard tapered mandrels Ferrees offers, there are about five or six if I recall correctly. Work your way up and only buy what you need at the time. The larger rods, balls and barrels should come along as you need them as will a dent machine. Best of luck

Daniel C. Oberloh, The Henry Higgens (according to Rick Denny) of band instrument repair.
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Seattle, Wa
www.oberloh.com

AGAIN, THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR GREAT IDEAS!

I APPRECIATE THEM ALL!

if you're gonna buy horns to tinker around with, penetrating oil will speed up the process of removing stuck slides.

are you telling me there's no shop in Houston that you could go to and ask for what types of tools they use?

No wonder you repair techs are so cynical. Your customers have made you that way. I am pretty handy but I learned a valuble lesson early from my repair guys, Lee Stofer and Rich
Ita. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO FIX YOUR HORN YOURSELF. TAKE IT TO A GOOD PRO AND PAY WHAT EVER HE WANTS. There is no telling how much that philosphy has saved me.