TubeNet

Some of you have seen the announcement on BBC's website regarding Meinl-Westons's "materials surcharge" on soon-to-be shipped tubas and euphoniums. In addition Matt Walters informed me about this change when I spoke with him this morning.

My first thought is that this is a cute way for MW to raise their prices again and allow dealers to deflect any flack back to MW's purported higher materials costs. While it may indeed be so, a little further reasearch does indicate some volatility in the copper/brass market. An example:

http://www.metalcenternews.com/2006/Mar ... arkets.htm

Now, I'm no metals dealer or metal market trader, but I do wonder if this signals a trend. Why not a labor cost surcharge, a plant untility surcharge, or a delivery surcharge? Shouldn't these costs be factored into the sales price already?

BTW: the MW HoJo tubas won't be in until September or October, per MW and Matt. Maybe MW has run out of brass.

This subject got me thinking about the metals used in brass instrument making. Maybe some of our experts can answer/comment:

1. How do brass makers buy brass? Plates, sheets, tubes?
2. It appears that the major component of brass is copper. What percent copper is appropriate for brass horns? What about the zinc content?
3. Are there differences among makers as to how much copper content goes into their brass? MW v. Dalyan v.Tri-Star? Does it matter?
4. Is a brass shortage justification for confiscating and melting down all saxophones?

Okay, suppose they really want to recover their added cost. There's, what, about 20-25 lbs. of brass in a tuba? So, if the price of brass has doubled from last year (let's use the price of copper as the basis, since there's more copper than zinc in brass and copper's the denser material) from, say $1.44/lb to $2.20/lb, the cost differential in a 25 lb. Kaiser tuba made of pure copper is:

(2.20x25) - (1.44x25) or
55 - 36 = `$19 approximately

Not bad, if that's what MW charges. Of course, your dealer is going to add his vig on top of that, which is what--about 40 percent? So make that $27. Still not bad.

But, what about the metal that's used but isn't part of the final product (i.e. scrap)? Well, I'm assuming that MW recycles their scrap and are actually enjoying the benefit of higher prices paid for it. So their overhead due to scrap should be pretty much the same.

Or am I missing something here?

I know a couple things locally; materials costs for metallic items have doubled since last year. Projects that were budgeted for $3 million are costing $6 million. That is HUGE.

And...the local scumbags are stripping metal anywhere they can find it; copper wire is being stolen off jobs at night; this week a couple guys in hard hats were stopped in the act of literally stripping a building of everything metallic. Someone was electrocuted trying to steal *energized* copper conductor. AZ is contemplating passing a law that requires metal recyclers to get ID of the sellers, similar to how pawn shops have to.

So...maybe that has something to do with it.

MA

Alex F wrote:Is a brass shortage justification for confiscating and melting down all saxophones?

Ah, but you're assuming that saxophones are made out of brass in the first place!

windshieldbug wrote:

Alex F wrote:Is a brass shortage justification for confiscating and melting down all saxophones?

Ah, but you're assuming that saxophones are made out of brass in the first place!

[picture of Yanagisawa curved soprano with black finish]

Bronze? They've been known to do that, but that still takes copper.

In general, I think saxophones are much more likely to be made of brass than tubas are. Maybe it's time to give up on brass tubas. The future is in plastics, don't you think?

tuben wrote:Seems like the market is just getting a little tight when it comes to brass, (or more likely the copper that is required to make brass).

Actually, zinc (yeah, dumb ol' "pot metal") has nearly doubled in price since the beginning of the year and tripled since this time last year:



which tracks copper pretty closely:

By the family swimming pool, Ben receives words of advice from Mr. McGuire (Walter Brooke), a family friend, in one of the most memorable lines from film history:


Mr. McGuire: I just want to say one word to you - just one word.
Ben: Yes sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Ben: Yes I am.
Mr. McGuire: 'Plastics.'
Ben: Exactly how do you mean?
Mr. McGuire: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?
Ben: Yes I will.
Mr. McGuire: Shh! Enough said. That's a deal.

Donn wrote: Maybe it's time to give up on brass tubas. The future is in plastics, don't you think?

Time for the Kellyork

Chuck(G) wrote:

Donn wrote: Maybe it's time to give up on brass tubas. The future is in plastics, don't you think?

Time for the Kellyork

And in such nice colors, too!

Can one of you computer nerds come up with a nice picture of a York "made of" one of those nice Kelly colors, like crystal green or crystal red? Yeah! Color isn't just for sousaphones any more.

MA

Alex F wrote:1. How do brass makers buy brass? Plates, sheets, tubes?
2. It appears that the major component of brass is copper. What percent copper is appropriate for brass horns? What about the zinc content?
3. Are there differences among makers as to how much copper content goes into their brass? MW v. Dalyan v.Tri-Star? Does it matter?
4. Is a brass shortage justification for confiscating and melting down all saxophones?

1. I suspect they buy sheet and seamless tubing, to spec, from a metal supply house. They might use plate for forming heaving items like ferrules, and billets for machining a few bits, perhaps. Thinks like valve caps are probably machines from round bar stock. I don't see any castings on the typical tuba.
2. "Yellow" brass is about 75-25 or 70-30 copper to zinc, plus a few other things. "Red" brass is 85-15 or even 90-10 copper to zinc. "Goldbrass" is in between.
3. Most tubas that are just plain brass are made from yellow brass. Brass with a higher copper content is usually a premium item and sold at a higher price.
4. No, it's an excuse to see if people are willing to pay more for tubas without actually changing the price.

Rick "guessing on the last item" Denney

Scooby Tuba wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:4. No, it's an excuse to see if people are willing to pay more for tubas without actually changing the price.

I can't imagine it will become a line item on the receipt. Tuba+surcharge+tax/shipping=total? Nah.

So it'll be more like Tuba+destination and delivery charges+taxes+title+registration fees+other applicable dealer charges-trade-in off old tuba=total?

Maybe we can get them to include a built in sound system. The Army already does this with bugles.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/28/Flori ... rica.shtml

I heard that the rising cost of metal is due to the chinese buying up every single scrap of metal they can find to prepare for the 2008 beijing olympics. Wether or not that rumor has any sort of validity to it I do not know. It does make sense though, considering the circumstances.

"Prices for primary metal products rose 6.4%, the largest increase observed since the 5.6% rise in February 2004. Strong demand, low inventories and concerns about supply pushed up prices for primary copper products (+25.0%), refined zinc products (+30.7%), primary nickel products (+20.0%), silver products (+18.8%) as well as refined gold products (+7.4%)." (http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060530/d060530b.htm)

That article is kind of boring, but has some interesting facts at the same time, that, given my station in life, are fairly useless to me. However, the rising costs of raw materials, most notibly zinc and copper seem to me to be the reason for this new charge on tubas. it is not immediately apparent who is responsible for this increase in price, but as I said before, it could be due to the olympics happening in china. Consideration most likely should be given also to the steadily rising costs of petroleum products, and the resultant increase in shipping costs.
Another article offers an explanation:

"Metal prices have increased because of a growing global economy, increasing raw material demand from China (whose GDP increased by 9.9 percent in 2005) and speculation. Garino said institutional investors, as well as hedge funds, decided to expand beyond stocks and bonds and started eyeing commodities as a "fresh asset class."

In mid-May, the investors' commitment to commodities weakened and prices started to go down.

Copper, for instance, averaged $1.60 a pound on the London Metal Exchange last year. It went over $4 a pound in mid-May, an all-time high for the metal. But Tuesday, it was $3.06 a pound."

http://www.elpasotimes.com/business/ci_3965026

soooo... there you go.

I doubt that tuba manufacturers are maliciously adding charges to the prices of their instruments. If they did, people would get mad and eventually stop buying from that particular manufacturer.

I think they should pro-rate the surcharge depending on the size of the instrument. A MW 2165 surely uses more "metal" than a MW 182.