Need middle/high school tuba purchase advice!

[TubaTodd]

My wife is a band director at a small christian school (5th-12th grade). This is the FIRST time the school has had a band program that has gotten off the ground. After their first concert last April, the teachers, students and parents were amazed at how much they learned in such a short time (only 4 months).

Recently my wife has learned that her program is being graciously awarded a very generous donation. This donation will allow her to purchase the school's first tuba and other muvh needed equipment.

My wife has asked me to find out what tuba would be ideal for her program. She is in need of a tuba that can be easily used by a middle school or high school player. I have thought of a couple of different horns, but I was wondering what tubas fellow tuba players/band directors would suggest for such a program.

We are looking for a 4/4 horn with 4 front-action valves (preferably piston valve). Of course price is a factor. The cheaper it is, the better the chance she may get 2 tubas for her program.

My first instinct was the Conn 5J. I played on one when I attended a fine arts camp during the summer when I was in high school. I had a great time playing on it.

How are the Allora tubas from the Brasswind. I noticed they have 2 horns that seem to be copies of comparable Miraphone models (186 and 191).

Thanks in advance!!!!

[CJ Krause]

***

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Weril makes a copy of the little Yamaha 621. Nice, inexpensive, and a perfect size for younger kids.

[ContraDude]

I don't want to put a hamper on you all's fun, but I am a senior in high school and my playing has been severely hampered by my cruddy yamaha horn... it's not my tonality, it's the fact it's a beginner horn. the 321 is a great beginning horn, and a decent intermediate horn, but when you are trying to play rolling thunder, it just doesn't cut it...

in summary, I was just venting steam. get the 321, it's very price efficient and is pretty good for a horn in it's price range.

[Chuck(G)]

I don't like the 5J for school use as it's not "built like a tank"; if I remember correctly, the bottom bow has a guard wire without a cap.

If you're thinking about the YBB-321, consider the Weril clone, the J980. Your money will go farther.

The King's not a bad idea--while workmanship reportedly is variable, it's a nice sturdy instrument that plays well.

If you want an indestructable instrument, consider ordering a Glassl fiberglass model.

[ken k]

I would not recommend the Yamaha 321 if middle school students are going to play it because these horns are huge and can be very difficult to manage with the upright valve configuration, especially for a younger, smaller student. While fourth valves are nice, I do not think they are totally necessary for a young student. In the situation we have here, where your band program is just beginning, a nice three valved horn will be fine and would save you some money for other things. There are other very important instruments and things which need to be purchased too I am sure.

King makes a very nice horn model number 1135. This is a large 3/4 or small 4/4 sized horn and it plays in tune with a good tone. It actually uses the valve set from the old Conn 12J. I like the King 1135 better than some other 3/4 horns like the Yamaha 105, because it is a bit larger and has a bigger sound, but is still manageable for the middle school student. It is also constructed very sturdily with lots of braces and its brass is not too thin which can help reduce denting. it also has front action valves which I feel are a little easier for a young student to handle.

Of course the king 2341 is a nice horn but may not fit your middle schoolers or your budget.

Another nice horn like this if you can find a nice used example is the Olds O-991 (I think that was the model number. Bach also made these for a few years in the 80's after Olds went out of business. They bought the tooling from Olds.) Unfortunately these horns are no longer made.

The tuba is one integral part of the whole band picture. We tubenetters tend to be more tuba-centric (new word) in our views and opinions. As a band director I tend to see the big picture a bit more than some others may.

ken k

[ken k]

Call 1-800-usaband or go to 1800usaband.com and see what they have available in used instruments. They often have refurbished instruments available for a decent price. You may be able to get multiple instruments so that your students can keep one at home to practice and then use another one at school. This way you do not have to have a parent transport the instrument to school every day or week or however often they would need it.
In our district studetns may not pring these large instruments on the bus (supposedly for insurance reasons), so we have duplicate instruments.
ken k

[sloan]

Todd-

Mountain Brook went through the same acquisition cycle several years ago. After I talked them out of St Pete's, they went with the small VMI stencil. I think they are very happy with them. The only problem that I can see is that you specify a preference for pistons. Contact me via e-mail and I'll connect you with the MB band director so you can ask him how happy he is with them.

Another option not yet mentioned is the Lidl. It's also rotary, and very small - but it sounds good and (particularly important for a school horn) is designed to be particularly resistant to expensive accidents. Lee Stofer is the guy to see about them.

Of course, you know about the King 2341 - and it has pistons. If you only need ONE, and the budget will allow for a trip to Woodbridge or Baltimore to personally pick one out, I can't think of any reason to look further.

I don't think Kelly can afford my (used, but pristine) YBB-621S - but the corresponding Werill is worth a look (but only if you can live with a very small tuba AND insist on pistons)

And, of course, no one ever got fired for specifying a Miraphone 186.

[Tubatoad]

[quote="sloan"]Todd-

Mountain Brook went through the same acquisition cycle several years ago. After I talked them out of St Pete's, they went with the small VMI stencil. quote]

Kenneth, at the risk of displaying my ignorance, what were your reasons for talking Mountain Brook out of the St. Petersburg? Living as I do in central NC, The Tuba Exchange is close by and as I acclimate my congregation to tuba and further develop my skills, I was thinking of going to a larger horn than my Cerveny 683 Bb. Mr. Simonetti of T-E is very pleased with his St. Petes and I must admit I liked the ones I tried. It won't happen very soon (daugher going into college!), and my budget will still be limited, but I'd like to begin planning now.

[TubaTodd]

Todd-

Mountain Brook went through the same acquisition cycle several years ago. After I talked them out of St Pete's, they went with the small VMI stencil. I think they are very happy with them. The only problem that I can see is that you specify a preference for pistons.

Tell me more about the VMI stencil. What is the model #? Kelly is not opposed to purchasing rotary horns, however pistons may be easier to maintain.

Of course, you know about the King 2341 - and it has pistons. If you only need ONE, and the budget will allow for a trip to Woodbridge or Baltimore to personally pick one out, I can't think of any reason to look further.

Kelly would love to buy a few 2341's, but since is is a brand-new program at her school, she needs to focus on getting tubas that will be easily usable by younger and older students alike. In about 5 years she may be puchasing larger horns.

I don't think Kelly can afford my (used, but pristine) YBB-621S - but the corresponding Werill is worth a look (but only if you can live with a very small tuba AND insist on pistons)

And, of course, no one ever got fired for specifying a Miraphone 186.

Are you talking about the Weril J680? How are those? How much do they cost? Who sells them?

[TubaTodd]

Kenneth, at the risk of displaying my ignorance, what were your reasons for talking Mountain Brook out of the St. Petersburg? Living as I do in central NC, The Tuba Exchange is close by and as I acclimate my congregation to tuba and further develop my skills, I was thinking of going to a larger horn than my Cerveny 683 Bb. Mr. Simonetti of T-E is very pleased with his St. Petes and I must admit I liked the ones I tried. It won't happen very soon (daugher going into college!), and my budget will still be limited, but I'd like to begin planning now.

This has been a topic of much debate on TubeNet. Try searching the archives to find detailed information.

In a nut-shell:

Those who do NOT like the St. Petes (me being included) are less than trilled with the quality of the alloy used to make the instrument. I have had the nickel-silver finish flake off in my hands. (NO JOKE!) In addition, the rotary valves are prone to problems. I encourage you to read the archives before purchasing one of these horns. If you are looking for a larger horn than your Cerveny (and don't mind pistons) have a look at the King 2341.

[Chuck(G)]

And, of course, no one ever got fired for specifying a Miraphone 186.

Ken, I'd sooner pour sand down the leadpipe of my York than buy a 186 for middle school use. At one time, it may have represented an economic alternative, but no longer.

One of the local high schools back in the 1980's built a performing arts building and had a no-holds-barred budget for instrument acquisition. They purchased Bessons, Kings and Miraphones (and one really awful Amati) for tubas.

Today, the Bessons and Kings still look pretty good and play well. Of the four Miraphones originally purchased, only one is in playing condition and the bell looks like crumpled tinfoil. The BD tells me that it won't survive another refurb, so they're playing it into the ground.

The brass on the Miraphones is thin and the bell requires a lot of work if a wrinkle or dent occurs near the wreath. I've seen the "American Style" tubas come back looking good from the shop when the bell flare has been folded back on itself. I've never seen a Miraphone recover from such abuse.

As a privately-owned student horn, or for collegiate use, I'd think that a 186 would be fine, but not as a middle school horn.

[sloan]

Why not St Petes? Primarily because they have a reputation of not standing up to student abuse. Secondarily because they don't appear (to me) to give good value for their price.

On the VMI stencils - sorry, I don't recall the precise model. I think that VMI makes two sizes of BBb - the smaller size has appeared in at least two mail-order stores under various names. I want to use the number 2301 (and I think the larger model is the 3301/2). Well constructed, even scale, excellent price (at the time)

On the 2341's - if *I* can handle a 2341, then just about any 9th grader should be able to. Start them off right with DEG Tuba Rests. But, while the BELL is big, the tuba itself is really a smallish 4/4.

Sorry - don't know the model # for the Weril copy of the Yamaha 621. And, I don't really recommend it - but, it is an option worht exploring for small students. The Yamaha is infinitely better in terms of construction quality - but you can trash 3 Werils for the price of one Yamaha, and have a box of parts left over when you are done.

There's also a larger Weril copy of the larger (top action) Yamaha 321 (I think that's right) - but, while these are still found in band rooms everywhere, I don't think they are in the running for Kelly's needs.

I apologize for indulging in an old-fart computer joke by saying "no one was ever fired for specifying a Miraphone 186". It's an old IBM joke - and the meaning is the same: if you don't *know* anything, and don't want to find out....following the crowd will protect you from criticism (even if you do end up making an expensive mistake).

If I were doing the ordering, I think I'd pop for one Lidl (small, rotary) and one King 2341 (a bit larger, pistons). This covers the range of student sizes, and as students grow from one to the other they would be exposed to a variety of tuba styles. This might prevent the students from becoming typical tuba gearhead bigots.