Loud Bands

Tubainsauga · Post by **Tubainsauga** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:18 am

I was just at the Air Force band concert at ITEC. The band was in, some ways, very good. All the parts were there, played cleanly, but I was a suprised at the volume. It felt like they forgot they were playing inside. It was sometimes painfully loud and lacked the contrast of truly quiet and delicate playing, in addition to overpowering the soloist at times. I'm wondering if this is normal or if it was a probem with the hall or if I'm just used to a very different style of playing. Any comments are appreciated. It was just so loud.

XtremeEuph · Post by **XtremeEuph** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:42 am

Yeah, the Canadian Air Command Band likes playing loud too.......must be a trend.

OldBandsman · Post by **OldBandsman** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:49 am

I just got back from band camp out in Ohio. All those midwesterners seemed to play loud too. Even the faculty played loud. Maybe we've got a trend but maybe they were all trying to establish their dominance in the pecking order.

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:01 am

There appears to be a corelation between being less than age 30 and loud playing. The tendency is there in most of us. It must be part youthful enthusiasm and part competitiveness.
I recovered from this early when playing too loud began to cost me money. You want every part heard and every word understood but volume beyond that is overkill and could get you fired.
Couple that with the trend that big bands, these days think they need to be loud to compete with electric bands (false premise) and you got venue operators mad as hell.
I use six Eons (300 watts each) in small venues turned low where people can talk easily but all that power even turned low can move your hair and clothes.
Dennis Gray
tubatooter1940
www.johnreno.com/

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:32 pm

About 35 years ago, I attended an indoor concert by the U.S. Marine Band "The President's Own" here in the SF Bay area. VERY fine playing, but I left at the intermission because they (the military) amplified the band to extreme volume levels. I was disgusted at this juvenile decision to make the band loud like some idiotic rock concert. Those fine musicians didn't need any amplification.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:13 pm

OldBandsman wrote:I just got back from band camp out in Ohio. All those midwesterners seemed to play loud too.

John, was I too loud?

Manituba · Post by **Manituba** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:17 pm

XtremeEuph wrote:Yeah, the Canadian Air Command Band likes playing loud too.......must be a trend.

I do believe that most bands do play too loudly.

Before I joined the Air Command Band, I had seen a number of their concerts and they could be much too loud.

Our new director has been with us since February and is addressing the issue head-on. Since I've joined the band (March) they have not been playing nearly as loud as I remembered from sitting in the audience. Hopefully this will take and the band will be better for it.

I will admit that it is a different ballpark when compared to orchestral dynamics.

Reading a different post about service bands playing outdoors, so far about 40% of the gigs I've played have been outdoors and this may have something to do with it.

Let me know what you think the next time you see us.

Thanks,
Chris

Cameron Gates · Post by **Cameron Gates** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:48 am

Ace wrote:About 35 years ago, I attended an indoor concert by the U.S. Marine Band "The President's Own" here in the SF Bay area. VERY fine playing, but I left at the intermission because they (the military) amplified the band to extreme volume levels. I was disgusted at this juvenile decision to make the band loud like some idiotic rock concert. Those fine musicians didn't need any amplification.

Ace, the only amplification (in indoor settings) the band uses now is for pumping up woodwind soloists. Try going to another concert and excuse yourself during the clarinet solo. No one should want to hear that instrument anyway.

Rick F · Post by **Rick F** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:26 am

I heard the Marine Band in West Palm Beach, FL two years ago. They sounded fantastic! No microphones that I could see. The louds and softs were well balanced.

About 5 years ago, I heard the Army Field Band (Boca Raton, FL) in an outdoor concert. They also sounded good but I was surprised to see microphones over the tuba section. I think there were 3 tubists... all had a second horn to switch to which could have been Eb's. I didn't think the tubas needed amplification.

OldBandsman · Post by **OldBandsman** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:24 pm

TubaTinker wrote:
OldBandsman wrote:I just got back from band camp out in Ohio. All those midwesterners seemed to play loud too.
John, was I too loud?

The first day I was too... I caught myself competing to be heard!

About half of us had calmed down some by Saturday concert.

John

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:43 pm

The nutty thing to me is that a band will play at full strength with all the red-faced ffff dynamics they can muster in the same venue where, just the night before, a full house enjoyed an unamplified string quartet.

Scott C · Post by **Scott C** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:50 pm

What a GREAT Topic!!!!

Concerning the Military Band at ITEC. I would be interested to know what pieces were so loud. I'm betting that, since it was a TUBA conference, the programing was probably toward the loud side. Not many people wanted to sit through foo foo at those TUBA conferences!!!!

I'm in the Field Band, a previous post noted that we are mic'd during outside shows. Absolutely!! all sections are mic'd. The chorus even has individual mics. We might not be amplified, but just in case, the sound guys mic each section. (If they didn't put out mics, they'd be out of a job!!!) In some of the stranger halls we also set up spot mics to help with the balance.

We do have 3 tubas, all play CC, in a rare moment one of us might play an F tuba, but definetly not EEb. I can't get over fingering C 1&2...

Our conductors are constantly harping on us over dynamics, so much so that it is a predictable part of every rehearsal. I am surprised at how loud the WW's can be, especialy the clarinets, and there are 12 that can blow. It's amazing just how loud the clar can be in the hands of an accomplished performer.

sc

Adam C. · Post by **Adam C.** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:33 pm

WHAT? CAN'T HEAR...

Yeah, we're too loud and not soft enough at the extremes. Just a big dynamic shift.

There's lots of reasons, from everyone using bigass equipment (myself included) to just plain old "it feels good to play loud and I have no self control".

I also think there's a band vs. orchestra stylistic thing happening, but that's another can of worms.

Rick F · Post by **Rick F** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:55 pm

I play in 2 comm bands. We're always being told that we're playing too loud. One conductor likes to say, "Well you got the 'blastisimo' part right, now if you could only get down to pp where it's marked, that would be great."

In one band - where we have 4 euphs - we normally drop to one player for pp, two for p then all can play at mf or higher. We were playing only one on a part in one section of "Victory at Sea" when Maestro Loras Schissel was conducting us. He stopped the band and told us all to play - but softy. It did sound better with more voices I thought.

I would think dropping to one on a part is pretty normal. Yes - no?

Tom Holtz · Post by **Tom Holtz** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:27 am

Let the rant begin!!!

Any conductor who has been in front of a band for any length of time is going to tell the low instruments they're too loud, because they can't hear the high instruments anymore. Exhibit A: the ringtone that parents can't hear...

For articles other than this NPR story, search Google for "mosquito ringtone"

People naturally lose the upper spectrum of their hearing as they get older. Standing in front of a band every day makes the problem worse, and faster, too. There's a reason conductors keep all the highest pitched instruments close to them up front. I'm sure many conductors will insist their hearing is just fine, thank you, but it's a simple fact that it isn't. Bands are @#$!%ing loud, and crush a conductors ears. You play tuba? Get used to The Hand.

We love playing loud as much as the next section, we just don't crank up the torque that often. Even when there's 10-14 clarinets and some flutes hammering away, it's not uncommon for the section to put the horns down and let Cameron cover the part himself. Happens all the time. We know the conductor is hearing all the tuba they care to hear, and probably more, especially with all the BATs we use in the band. The big horn isn't helping anyone's cause in this situation. If it's obvious that balance is going to be a problem, it's our job (and it's yours, too) to sierra tango foxtrot uniform.

Exhibit B: Different problem, same reason... The officers at Marine Barracks have noted in the past that the melody isn't loud enough when the band plays at the Evening Parade on Friday nights. We march a 36 piece band on Friday nights, 8 of them are trumpets--almost a quarter of the band. One plays the 3rd part, one plays 2nd, the other 6 play the 1st part. I believe the part distribution is the same for the 8 clarinets in the formation. The band is only 36 total. You can't hear the melody with those numbers? There's a reason...

Nature and physics are not in favor of the tuba section on this issue.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:09 am

The thing that always strikes me when I listen to a British Brass Band is the contrast. They play incredibly well and together from pppp to ffff. The thing that strikes me on this side of the pond is that we just play loud with not much contrast. The groups that do strive to have the wide contrast and play pppp seem to lack that broad but very soft sound that the best British Brass Bands seem to achieve so effortlessly.

I bet it's because they don't use those beastly CC's & F's! (just kidding)

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:27 pm

I was reminded of this thread when I listened to this week's "Listen to the Band". The band that's the subject of this week's program is the Brighouse and Rastrick Band, currently celebrating their 125th year.

At any rate, the leadoff work on the program is "Floral Dance". I suppose every brass band on the face of the earth has played this one--it's certainly a summertime favorite of our band. It's not technical and rather straightforward (and one of the two songs that I know with the word "euphonium" in the lyrics). Piece of cake.

Yet, when I listen to B&R play it, it sounds nothing like the way our band does it. Their dynamic control and blend is to envied.

See if you don't think so:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/shows/rp ... enband.rpm

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:27 am

It's never too loud for me but the owner of the bar and I work out a hand signal to give him or her to direct volume up or down.
If I get a one finger salute, I can assume the there are more problems than just the volume.

OldBandsman · Post by **OldBandsman** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:08 pm

Doc, it's not age. It's attitude!

Ensemble music is a cooperative enterprise. I go into a session with the attitude that all the players are important and that each of us will contribute appropriately. So my goal is to play in such a way that my sounds make the contribution that's needed. The bass line I lay down has to do its job; rhythm, tonality, solid support for melodies in other instruments, fuller output if bass gets the tune, and so on. We often hear the term "fit and finish" when we look for a new automobile. I want my bass line to have the right "fit and finish" too. So I'm mindful about my attitude when I pick up the horn.

John

passion4tuba · Post by **passion4tuba** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:01 pm

I have seen a couple of comments about loud playing centering mainly in the midwest, but in Texas where I live, my band director says that most Texas bands play within the mf-ff range and don't move greatly beyond that. I did play in the midwest in my middle school years, i can't really be a judge since only middle school bands i heard, however they did seem to play relativley loud for thier age, and not always in tune throughout the ensamble. Great ensamble performance is supposed to be good no matter what dynamic range though, so why is it that Texas high school bands have such a challenge to play soft? let's say mp-pp?

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