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I need some help. I ahve played a Conn-Helleburg STD for many years and since I got my new CC, My PT-64 is dramatically sharp on all registers. My conn is however right on the mark and I cannot explain whay the rims are very similar but I had no idea that I would not even be able to lip it down.

help \
discuss/
suggestions?

[random thoughts]:

1. If the PT64 is sharp in all registers, doesn't that mean you need to simply pull your main tuning slide a wee bit further?

2. I own and often play the std Helleberg. I have played a PT64, but didn't like it -- iirc, the rim was much wider, and felt much different.

3. I'd guess that the helleberg cup volume is significantly more than the PT64. I've heard (I'm not an expert in this) that this can have an effect on intonation -- especially upper register.

4. If you have a CC, I wouldn't recommend a PT64 with it -- isn't the 64 a much more often-used F tuba mpc? I've used my Helleberg with a variety of CC (and even Eb) tubas with good success. I have not tried any of the bowl-shaped ("German") mpcs, however, except for a PT-72 with my Besson 983 for improved lower register response.

[end of random thoughts]

thanks for the advise
FYI my main tuning slide is already out all the way.
true it is commonly used for the F tuba but I got it at a great price and custom music says that it can be used effectivly on the CC side of town.

ciao
A

tubaplyer wrote:I need some help. I ahve played a Conn-Helleburg STD for many years and since I got my new CC, My PT-64 is dramatically sharp on all registers. My conn is however right on the mark and I cannot explain whay the rims are very similar but I had no idea that I would not even be able to lip it down.

help \
discuss/
suggestions?

It sounds like to me that you've already got a mouthpiece that works just fine for your horn. I don't think there's anything wrong with experimenting with equipment. Hell, I went through MANY mouthpieces before I found the one that worked for me. By the way, that happens to be an SSH if you were curious. If it ain't broke, no use fixing it. Good luck though with whatever you decide!

Ralph

I have a Wick 1 to go with my Besson. As long as I have my Besson I will play the Wick 1, which, no more than I paid for my Besson, will probably be for the rest of my playing life.

So your Conn Helleberg works well for your instrument. Why not play it for the rest of your life? If only other things in life were as dependable and long lasting.

It may have been Roger Bobo or someone else who said something to the effect of, "When I think about changing mouthpieces, I go and practice three hours on the one I have."

This fad of the tuba du jour or mouthpiece du jour must stop. It is only a fabrication of the manufacturers to get people to buy new instruments and mouthpieces just because. If I remember correctly, bloke plays a helicon that is about 80 years old. The souzy I play is "only" 70 years old. My Besson is 35 years old. My sports car is a 1967 E-type. My cornet dates from WWII. A guy in my community band plays a 1920's Conn Bb bass saxophone that is in perfect condition, and he knows how to play it in tune and blend. True Stradivarius violins are @ 400 years old, and true Amati stringed instruments about the same, give or take a few years depending on which member of the family made it.

That is not to say that just because it is old it is valuable. Crap is still crap, old or new. But if it was well made to begin with, and is of durable materials, and functions as needed, why change just for the sake of change? Rather, enjoy!

There is nothing wrong with playing the same mouthpiece as long as it lets you do everything you want to do with the instrument. In fact, playing the same mouthpiece is favorable. It shows that you are a well established player. Also, your practice time will be more productive in the direction of mastering new music and techniques rather than re-adjusting your embochure to a new mouthpiece over a period of time. If your mouthpiece works for you, stick with it.

tubaplyer wrote:thanks for the advise
true it is commonly used for the F tuba but I got it at a great price and custom music says that it can be used effectivly on the CC side of town.

Steve replies: "**I** would never choose to use a PT64 with a CC tuba. IMO, it's too small and too shallow (hence, too bright) -- which is not the effect I'm seeking with my CC."

Yes, you can use any mpc in any tuba. Some will cause intonation problems (too large/deep an mpc for a smaller F tuba, for example). But unless you have a Miraphone 184, or similar small CC (with "hints" of an F tuba in the voice), I would classify the advice you received as theoretically true, but non-ideal. The only other reason I would advise someone to use a PT64 with a CC is if the tuba had a very dark voice (no overtones) and you wanted to brighten it a bit, because your ear believed this was actually a problem.

Cheers,

I your tuning slide is already all the way out and you're still sharp there is a serious problem with the horn and you need a pro like Tubatinker or Bloke to help you deal with it.

You might want to consider the new Alan Baer CC G&W piece. The rim isn't as sharp as the Conn, but it is close. I love mine, and intonation seems improved on my 52J with it.

yes, we all are, or some sort of variation. i choose the R&S heeleberg because it looks cool, remember. he who has the newest coolest mouthpiece is obviously the best player

tubaplyer wrote:I need some help. I have...STD for many years

Am I the only one who thinks this guy should see a doctor?

I have seen plenty of doctors thank you and they are all no help.

***...

I'm curious as to how long you've been playing with your new mpc+horn setup and how much you practice. A new setup takes time to get used to. If your practicing/playing is down as low as 3x a week, it could take even longer. (I've noticed that many players that don't play alot tend to blow rather sharp).

A mpc should make things better, not worse. It should have advantages. Some mpc's are great if you play them a certain way (for ex. a helleberg mpc has a very different responce in the low register than a C4 type cup mpc). Still, even with alot of playing, it can take months before you REALLY know what your dealing with.

THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE RIGHT JOB. Many players that do alot of different kind of playing (symphony, jingles, quintet, dixiland, big band, etc) live and die by this. Large tubas for big bass stuff, thin tubas for small ensembles. Whatever you need. Its logical to have a mpc which fits the equipment and/or style of playing. If your main group does alot of nasty staccatto agressive playing, you could kill yourself with a beautiful-think-round-colored sounding mpc with a slow attack. You could also change to something else.

Other players want it all on one horn-one mpc. Others switch only the horn, others only the mpc. You'll have to decide whats best.

Personally, I feel that if your blowing a new horn (I think thats what you said), stay with your old mpc untill you've got that axe singing (??? 3-4 months???, you'll know). Then, if you think it necessary, change your mpc. And give it time.

Limit your changes.

Good luck.

I'm of the school that says you match the mouthpiece to the instrument.

I happen to use a PT64 on my F and 3/4 CC tubas (Miraphone 184, like someone said.)

However, I also played Sam Pilafian's Besson CC tuba with the PT 64, and he said, quote, "That is a good mouthpiece for that tuba."

I think the bowl shape of the PT64, as opposed to the funnel shape of the Helleburg, is just not working on your tuba.

I find I have very bad mouthpiece mismatch problems on euphonium...one mouthpiece makes it play very sharp, another one makes it play very flat, another one yet has it sharp in the high register and flat in the low register. I haven't found one that works yet, and it may be that I just have a bad instrument (not the case on horn; there are pitch "tendencies" that require moving the tuning slide, but not these off the wall high here low there problems.)

Klaus can comment extremely intelligently on effects that things like bowl shape, backbore, etc have on the tuba intonation response. Those of us who are not in his league just have to experiment until we find a good match.

MA

pjv wrote:A mpc should make things better, not worse. It should have advantages. Some mpc's are great if you play them a certain way (for ex. a helleberg mpc has a very different responce in the low register than a C4 type cup mpc).

Coincidentally, if both make it to tonight's practice, one of my tuba playing colleagues will have a Conn Helleberg and the other a C4, both on Bb Miraphone 186. They sound surprisingly similar, too, though indeed the C4 guy does tend to take the upper part if anyone does. I have a C4 and never want to see another mouthpiece anything like it, but it works for him.

bloke wrote:There may be worse fates...

Nah, I don't see saxes so it can't be TOO bad.

Ralph

yeah....I would say if your tuning slide is all the way out, try putting it back in .

Donn wrote:Coincidentally, if both make it to tonight's practice, one of my tuba playing colleagues will have a Conn Helleberg and the other a C4, both on Bb Miraphone 186.

But he went and made a liar out of me, bought a used TU29 for peanuts and played that instead of the C4. From a quick peek inside, it looks like a Helleberg.

There is one other thing to consider: Some tubas have alternate main tuning slides available. A shorter slide for A=443 and higher, and a longer slide for the right pitch (A=440). You might ask someone who is an expert on your particular tuba. A technician at a dealer who sells your brand of tuba is a good place to start.

I am one of those guys that do switch from time to time. I have just put my Conn/Helleburg in the case as I have used it so much that the plating is now mostly worn off of the face and it has a sharp edge. (I've been playing on it for many years.) I have switched to the stock mp that came with my MW-25. I find that it there was some getting used to, and I still have to work at the lower registers more with the meinl mp, but it is very brite and clear. I use an old Bach 18 in my Reynolds sousa phone that works great for that horn and it is also convient to have it there when I need it. I probably will either end up sending the Conn out for plating or replace it as I do think that the lower regisers are easier for me on it.
Steve