TubeNet

Is it just an American thing?
Eb seems to be good enough for everyone else

Tell that to a German.

It's a combination of tradition and personal preference, simple as that. People put up with the intonation on many different horns (not just tubas) for "that sound."

Well not everyone else in the world uses Eb tubas, a lot the germanic speaking places use F. The advantages of an F tuba vary from tuba to tuba just like any other instrument. My question is why do you really care? Is it a big deal that other people pick something to play? This goes for F players who persecute Eb as well. Frankly who gives a ****? IF you are good enough to win a job, you can play whatever you want, it only seems like the no talent idiots are the ones who are obsessed with who plays what on what mouthpiece. Maybe thats your "canned response" but after playing the besson 983 Eb and my current MW 2182 I just happen to like the way the F tuba sounds to me. Expect this as the answer, the days of "OMG YOU HAVE TO PLAY F TUBA IN ORCHESTRA" are over, the only reason this goes any further is because both sides, F and Eb can't accept the fact that there are other options, preferences, and opinions.

Response. Sound. At least for the big ones.

edit

I started with an Eb. My teacher was fine with me using an Eb. This was a few years ago, mind you, but I found the brass band compensating horns too tubby. Like the Bessons. Lacking something in clarity and focus. I came at this from from the euphonium side. Until I could find a decent F, I finally favored using an 1898 Diston Eb when I need a bass tuba with the orchestra.

What I was looking for was more overtone presence, a sound that would cut through the ensemble when I needed, and come back down when I wanted. A horn that would stand on its own, and carry the higher brasses when it had to. What I also consider the only valid BBb/CC comparison.

I found large rotary F's to be much more of the type of sound and response I was looking for. I finally settled on a Meinl-Weston 45S. The Eb's DID work, but it was the more subtle response of the horn, and overall sound that settled it for me in the application I wanted to use it in.

I would be remiss if I didn't state that it is highly usage AND horn dependant. YMMV!

For me, Eb tubas are just a little too big for the purpose that I would use them in an orchestra. I use the smaller horn for the smaller sound, and the Eb's that I've played sound too much like CC's in the orchestra. I like the slightly smaller sound of the F's. This is just personal taste, but I also like the smaller F tubas for that same reason. I don't see the point of having a big horn and a small horn if they're going to sound very similar, and in my (admittedly limited) experience in orchestras and with different horns, a big CC and a small F are the horns that get the sounds that I want moreso than the CC and Eb combination. I have played some Eb's that I thought sounded gorgeous, but they didn'ty sound like I wanted my small orchestral horn to sound. I was happier with the F tubas.

harold wrote:That statement actually has two qualifiers in it. The first is that you don't know anything and the second is that you repeat verbatim what you were told without the benefit of any experience.

Note that I'm asking this question of players that have played both types of horns AND can give a rational reason for choosing one horn over the other.

I was at a masterclass at a big university and was amazed at how many college students not only owned two horns, they actually owned the exact same models as their instructor.

One possibility is that they all play tested every horn available and by some remarkable fluke all chose the same instrumentation OR there is some sort of bias and they purchased horns because they didn't do any of their own thinking. Which one is most likely?

Is your instructor a loser because he never had a major gig? Nope - but you are if you don't develop your own concept of sound and find the best bit of technology to help you develop it.

So what you're really saying is that people are losers for buying the same horn as their instructors instead of looking for themselves. Am I correct? Because if so, you could have easily just stated this instead of asking a question that has no real answer because no two answers are going to be alike. People buy horns for so many reasons it's kind of funny. Some buy them because *insert famous tuba player* is playing it. Some buy them because their teacher plays it. Some buy them becuase that's what they could afford. The reasons are ALMOST endless. I bought my 186 because I knew it was a good all around horn and that it was in my budget. If you think people are "losers" for how they may purchase a horn is fine. That is your opinion and I am not going to tell you that it is right or wrong. But why beat around the bush with a question?

Ralph

harold wrote:If you spent the kind of money it takes to buy a horn without deciding what works best, you may not be a loser - but you certainly are foolish.

Is there a stigma associated with playing the Eb?

Is the sound really better with an F?

Are there any players in a major US symphony playing an Eb? Why is that?

Perhaps I'm doing some market research to see what types of bass tubas I should invest in...

Well I'm not going to say poor me about why I chose what I did and how I did. I knew what my budget was, looked at what was available at the time, and chose. I got VERY lucky that I ended up with such a great example of the Miraphone 186 CC. Was it foolish to buy a horn and not played it? You just might be right. But there were certain circumstances and I knew ENOUGH about these horns that I could be confident that I wouldn't end up with a piece of ****.

I think you might be right when it comes to Eb tuba and why people choose F over it. I was always told that Eb tuba was a British thing and you don't really use them outside of brass band. Is that correct? I don't think so, but to each his own.

I think that is up to the person in regards to this question. Personally, I don't care whether it's Eb or F, if I like the horn and I have the means to get it I'm going to.

I don't know, call all of them up and ask!

Perhaps you are looking into the bass tuba market. But if you REALLY were, you know there's a ton of information about this particular topic in a little section called the Archives.

Ralph

Doc wrote:

TexTuba wrote: But why beat around the bush with a question?

Ease up, TW. Maybe the man is simply going through taco withdrawls. I KNOW you can relate to that, can't you?


Doc

Yes, yes I can. He does live in Washington. I'm SURE they don't have tacos as good as down here in South Texas!

Ralph

harold wrote:

But if you REALLY were, you know there's a ton of information about this particular topic in a little section called the Archives.

You are right of course, but the archive doesn't necessarily give you the current pulse of what people are thinking.

You are right on that. Well if you ever find yourself in San Antonio or Corpus Christi Texas let me know and I'll show you some REAL tacos!!!

Ralph

harold wrote:...you need to develop your own concept of sound.

Although I am on a temporary hiatus in my search for a bass tuba, I am keeping my mind and ears open to both F and Eb tubas until I find the one that has the sound, ergonomics, and playability for my specific purposes. So, Harold, I'm finding this thread that you started and keep "stoking" very interesting and informative (at least the posts that aren't just about food).

At the time I decided to buy a bass tuba, Eb tubas were either Besson top-action compensators or old American Eb basses. I found a Musica (Cerveny, at least that's who made the parts) four-valve F tuba at a local surplus store (!) and bought it. Similarly priced Eb's would be been an old top-action Conn instead of the relatively new Musica.

I bought it to play in an amateur orchestra so I could play the bass tuba literature on the instrument (usually) intended by the composer.

Since that time, the Besson 983 and the Willson have breathed new life into Eb tubas. But I already have F tubas and like the ones I have.

My beef with Bessons is that their sound is too round--too much intended to fulfill the generalist role. I want a bass tuba to sound like a bass tuba, and not like something that can double for a contrabass. Even the solo Besson 983 is too round, even too pretty. For me, F is a specialty instrument and has to have a specialty voice. For example, I sometimes want to be able to blend with trombones, and both my F's make that easy compared with a Willson Eb, a Besson, or even a Monster Eb Bass.

Wanting a distinct voice that is clearly not a contrabass but clearly a tuba also applies to wind band bass tuba parts (when they are provided, or when I'm playing a transcription of a bass tuba part), and in a tuba quartet.

I could probably go either way in quintet.

Jay Bertolet plays Eb tubas in orchestral settings, and he found a Cerveny/Amati Eb that has F-tuba qualities for when he needs them, such as for Brahms, etc. But he bought the small Eb because he already played a big Eb (a Willson).

I disagree with the premise that Eb tubas were the standard bass tubas and F's the upstarts. Even in England, the F was the standard orchestral instrument up until the 60's. It still is in the German tradition. The Eb derives from the saxhorn family, but the first bass tuba was an F. Eb's were more common in the U.S. than they are now, but they were replaced by contrabass tubas in most of their original applications, not by F's. The use of F tubas came from the orchestra tradition in Europe.

Rick "who has never played an Eb tuba that's like the Yamaha 621 or B&S Symphonie F tubas" Denney

tubalawlisa wrote:....... I've met a lot of elitist attitudes about soloing on E-flat, but I agree it has to be a personal preference......

If that is really true, it is very unfortunate. For any of us to cop an attitude like that, is silly. It's not as if there is ANY LONG standing tradition held by tubists, who are soloists. The phenomenon of a tubist as a soloist (particularly a full time soloist), is so new, that there has not been enough time for any real traditions to develop.

To be discriminatory about any instrument's suitability as a solo instrument, based solely on it's key, is ridiculous. John Fletcher did pretty well as a solo voice, with an Eb (not to mention Pat Sheridan), and there was a fellow by the name of Phillips, who was fairly successful as a soloist.....on a CC tuba! (what was his first name again?....)

Rick,
Have you played the Norwegian Star? If one is looking for something to blend with trombones(other than a cuisinart...) this may be it. Unlike any other Eb that I have played, in a good way.
Funny how we're usually seeking to blend with this or balance that. Do you think other instrumentalists are concerned about how their axes will behave with the tuba? Has this ever been a 2-way street?

I don´t play Eb on a regular basis, but have had a toot or two on my section mates´ Besson 4+1 and Yamaha´s copy thereof.

I DID add a CC to my horns after playing F for about 10 years, though.

If I want to own several horns, I´d want to make sure they overlapped only to a small extent, soundwise. If my budget is good enough for three horns, I´d wish for a HUGEophone in CC or BBb, a smallish tuba of the same pitch and a bass tuba.
If I choose to play CC, a not-so-big F sounds logical, because Ebs tend to sound like small CCs already.

As to my choice of axe according to what the teacher tells you, and not deciding on your own standards: Gimme a break !!
How do you aqcuire your OWN sound as a young, budding musician ? You imitate. Who do you imitate ? People around you who impress you in their musicianship. HOPEFULLY your teacher is one of those.
And hopefully, you´ll manage to go beyond what you´ve learned from others eventually.
As you mature musically, youll go for your own thing, but you still will be guided by the "school" you descended from. It´ll be called something like "A.J.´s heritage" though.

In my case I just went for the first good horns that crossed my path. I considered that as an amateur, I couldn´t go wrong with horns that were in professionals´ possession for a while.
Up to a certain point, I should think this would be the way to go for a student of music as well. It takes a lot of time and practise to outgrow pro-level horns.

Finally, what I prefer in my F rather than the CC: it´s MUCH easier to alternate styles of playing. The F makes it easy to play tongue-in-cheek vs. joyful vs. sad vs...
The CC makes it easy to play "WHHOOOUUAAH!"

harold wrote: Is it just an American thing? Eb seems to be good enough for everyone else

Who is in this group, "everyone else?"

From what I understand, people in non-American countries also use F tubas. As a matter of fact, most F tubas I've seen are made in non-American countries.

harold wrote: and most F tubas seem to have exceptional intonation issues.

It seems to me that to make this claim that one would have to qualitfy it by saying that "most of the F tubas I have tried...." Unless of course you have actually tried most F tubas (not just most models).


It seems the real questions are: What do all/most Eb tubas have in common and what do all/most F tubas have in common? Based on that one could then make a judgement as to which set of characteristics one prefers. It seems to me that one should base judgement more on an individual horn's characteristics than on general characteristics of a huge group of tubas (ie all Eb tubas in the world). A large F tuba may have more in common with an Eb tuba than it does with a small F tuba.

Generally, people do not have the time or resources to spend great amounts of time trying vast amounts of different tubas. If I learned that all of the winners of recent "real gig" auditions were playing F tubas not Eb tubas and I wanted to win a similar "real gig" audition, I might spend my limited resources and time finding a tuba similar to the ones audition winners are using. After I have won a real gig audition, if I have the inclination, time, and resources, I might mess around with Eb or other types of tubas on the job. But I would only do this after I'd gotten tenure in my "real gig." If I am a hobbyist on the tuba and consistent high quality performance was not how I made my living, I might spent lots of time messing around with all sorts of different horns. If orchestral tubists had more time and resources, maybe they would spend more time trying Eb tubas. In a real gig, the trombone/brass section isn't interested in humoring you while you experiment with your latest Ebay find.

Doc wrote:The new large... tubas are an intonation picnic. A real non-issue for me. Sound is #1 consideration anyway. Then I have to be able to find a way to play it in tune that doesn't get in the way of the music. Where that line lies is different for different folks. I don't mind alternate fingerings or slide-pulling.

...

Gotta find what works for you in your situation. Different for everybody.

Amen, brother!

Doc wrote:The need for searching for equipment is over after you won the job, isn't it? Apparently, you have what is necessary, or they wouldn't have chosen you. A new horn search would be something you just wanted to do.

You don't want to become Woody Allen's dead shark from Annie Hall

Doc wrote:

joebob wrote:In a real gig, the trombone/brass section isn't interested in humoring you while you experiment with your latest Ebay find.

If you have tenure, what can they do?

A little thing called "Dismissal For Cause"...

harold wrote:

most F tubas I've seen are made in non-American countries.

Obviously this is not an important part of the issue. Does it really matter where they are made or is it more important where they are sold?

I agree it is not important, just interesting to note that F tuba manufacturing is not an American tradition.

harold wrote:

It seems the real questions are: What do all/most Eb tubas have in common and what do all/most F tubas have in common? Based on that one could then make a judgement as to which set of characteristics one prefers.

This is exactly the real question - which you have failed to address in your post.

Sorry - I was addressing the questions, "Why F tuba" and "Is it just an American thing?" Why F tuba is because of what I said - players look at pros for guidance on what to play and choose the F. My own reasons have already been stated by others: Eb tuba responds less quickly, feels tubbier. I prefer more immediate articulation response, lighter sound, not too dark. However, again, not all Eb tubas are tubby, and not all F tubas are light and respond well. I just don't have time to spend looking for that Eb tuba that responds better than the F tuba I already like.