TubeNet

SOTStuba wrote:For instance, world class chefs only use the best cookware there is while my Grandmother has a 120 year old forged iron skillet that will fry the best chicken I've ever eaten.

Another example is that there have been more fish caught on a Zebco 33 rod and reel combo than any other combo ever, but you wont see anyone at the B.A.S.S. Masters Classic next year using one.

I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts on the matter were. I'm in there with everyone else because I LOVE trying out new equipment and seeing what kind of cool gadgets are out there, but in my very humble opinion shouldn't a good musician be able to pick up any horn (or drum, or violin, or piano, or whatever) that works and make beautiful music?

Well just because it's the best fried chicken you have had, doesn't make it the best. Seriously though, it's in my opinion because the equipment is out there. And it's not only horns, it goes to everything that can go on a horn. Why play a titanium mouthpiece when you can just play a Conn Helleberg? Because you can! Sure, GREAT musicians can pick up just about anything and make music with it. I've seen it done. It's just that quest to find the right combination of equipment to get that sound in your head to come out. If you are happy with what you have, then I sincerely say more power to you. But if you are NOT, then at least you have quite a few options to choose from.

Ralph

Two legitimate reasons:

1. Good tools make it easier to achieve a quality product, though they may demand more care on the part of the operator.

2. Tools themselves are interesting and can be appreciated by those who appreciate things that are made.

It's true that Bill Bell played an Eb sousaphone and a rotary King that most folks these days who've tried them can't figure out. Ansel Adams propelled photography into a true art using lenses that would be laughably poor today (at least for landscape photographers). Bobby Jones played with ungraded golf clubs that would be inconsistent and that would require extreme experience to understand. Fausto Coppi won the Tour de France using a bicycle with derailleurs that were operated with levers on the seat tube and seat stay, rather than the convenient integrated shifters and brake levers used by Floyd Landis. And so on. But they are judged in a historical context, performing with others similarly encumbered. They also knew the difference between their equipment and their product, and they focused on the product. But that doesn't mean they didn't appreciate the equipment. Ansel Adams was as proud of the Hasselblad that Viktor Hasselblad gave him as any bonehead amateur would have been, even though he knew it was his eye and mind that made art.

Rick "thinking also that it's easier to talk about stuff than skill" Denney

with bad Chinese accent "Oh Grasshoppa,have we taught you nothing?With right equipment,you can be world class without ever practicing or taking first lesson,which frees up valuable time for watching tv and playing computer game"





Mike-who wouldn't play in front of anyone right now at gunpoint without a 2 week prep time- Mason...

Well, for starters... either your Grandma is an incredible chicken-fryer or you are biased. I think Wendy's has pretty darned good chicken but it's not likely they are preparing it in vintage cast-iron skillets! ... just joking

Being a repairman, I get great pleasure out of having the opportunity to play lots of differerent tubas and other instruments. I have yet to find a musical instrument that plays itself. However, I have found some that really suck! There are lots of mechanical things that can make one horn play better than another, but the biggest factor is the person behind the mouthpiece. The better a horn plays for me, the more challenged I am to make it play better.

One thing that sets human apart from the rest of the zoological world is our extensive use of tools. Instruments are tools, and one wants to have the best tools possible for any serious endeavor. The is a minimum standard to be met, but the perfect tool has yet to be introduced. And that tool may be different for each user, and each application, so that most are compromises in some sense.

This is way too deep for a Monday morning!

windshieldbug wrote:One thing that sets human apart from the rest of the zoological world is our extensive use of tools. Instruments are tools, and one wants to have the best tools possible for any serious endeavor. The is a minimum standard to be met, but the perfect tool has yet to be introduced. And that tool may be different for each user, and each application, so that most are compromises in some sense.

Of course we manufacture tools, not just use them, and that's why we need to celebrate the tuba makers who really make it happen. What a dreary world it would be if tuba players all wanted nothing more than to play what everyone else was playing (Miraphone 186), or what they could get the cheapest (Jin Bao.)

Don't underestimate the manufacturers who developed skill and touch and could duplicate it centuries before CAD. As a matter of fact, when the set of golf clubs that Bob Jones used to win his grand slam were put on a modern swingweight machine, only what would now be called the 8 iron was a swingweight off.

It's no different than anywhere else, and two quotes are applicable:

1) Why climb the mountain? Because it it there.

2) If a man's reach does not exceed his grasp, then what's a heaven for?

I, for one am always ready to look at and try the next new item, as I am always curious and desirous of learning. So among other things I read and contribute to this forum. But I proceed with great conservatism, as "progress" or "new" does not always mean better, just as "old," depending on your context, does not always mean either better or worse.

Equipment is universal (everyone plays something)


Skill is uncomparable (we have beginners and professionals on this website)



Playing is discussed frequently on here, but most of the board membership can relate to equipment conversations because they apply to all of us.

When you fight a horn because if its deficiencies or because it's the wrong tool for the job, you can't concentrate on the music. You concentrate on avoiding mistakes or trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. Good equipment has a liberating effect on your musicianship.

However, if you're not a good musician, the greatest equipment in the world won't help much.

I think the best way we can use equipment is as a quicker means to an end -- if you want to sound like someone, the best first step is often to play on their equipment. You don't always need the best stuff, but you should always be looking for the equipment that fits you best.

I am not a 'perantucci' kind of player. Very good equipment, it just doesn't align with my concept of how I want to sound. We, I think, are very lucky -- we are not vocalists; we do not have to 'make' what we have work for us. There are enough tubas on the market that there is one out there for each of us that -- (I'm sorry) -- resonates with our own individual style, just like a tennis racquet or a style/size pair of shoes would.

Tu-bah, or not tu-bah, THAT is the question!!!

Think of how many different versions of JUST a CC tuba there are (or a BBb, or an Eb, or an F, or a eupher, helicon, sousa...). Why would there be so many different types of shape, bore, finish, valves, weight, and so on? Simple answer, right? WE are all different. One thing that you grow to learn through college, particularly when you're the poor guy who can afford only the cheaper equipment than your closest colleagues, is that size, shape, and $$ amount don't even matter. Brands don't matter, nor do keys, rotary vs. pistons, nor brass vs. silver finish. Just like the human voice, there is a different tuba to meet that voice. Even 10 "exact" models of the same tuba will play 10 different ways with 1 player. When you make that 10 "exact" models of tubas with 10 different players, you've got 10 completely different tubas, and THAT my friends is what makes music beautiful.

smurphius wrote:Tu-bah, or not tu-bah, THAT is the question!!!

Think of how many different versions of JUST a CC tuba there are (or a BBb, or an Eb, or an F, or a eupher, helicon, sousa...). Why would there be so many different types of shape, bore, finish, valves, weight, and so on? Simple answer, right? WE are all different. One thing that you grow to learn through college, particularly when you're the poor guy who can afford only the cheaper equipment than your closest colleagues, is that size, shape, and $$ amount don't even matter. Brands don't matter, nor do keys, rotary vs. pistons, nor brass vs. silver finish. Just like the human voice, there is a different tuba to meet that voice. Even 10 "exact" models of the same tuba will play 10 different ways with 1 player. When you make that 10 "exact" models of tubas with 10 different players, you've got 10 completely different tubas, and THAT my friends is what makes music beautiful.

"Bravo" (in a British accent)

I started on a "Brasswind" labeled Amati 4piston "student" horn, simply because no one knew if the church orchestra could support having a tuba, and I needed to keep the cost down. Within 8 months I hit limits that no amount of work would get me past. So I traded up to a Cerveny 683, and will have that one for a long time - maybe for the life of my playing. Better musicians than I will hit higher limits, and need to move up to better horns, and it's good to have a choice. (Someday I hope to try a Marzan!)

Tubatoad has a good point. No one wants to spend a bunch of money on something they won't use or doesn't work. On the other hand, most people who understand the longetivity of quality don't mind spending a little, and some a lot, more once they have progressed beyond beginner stage. Since there are so many choices out there for really good mid level to top level horns, it is not only desireable, but indeed it is necessary to have the discussions so the various similarities and differences from horn to horn, not only their playing characteristics, but ergonomics and other considerations as well, are discussed so a prospective purchaser may narrow down the universe to a manageable number of choices while avoiding irrational biases and pedantry.

We are all on the lookout for equipment that can make our best performance better.
If there can be no perfect horn, we need to find one that will impede our efforts the least.

Now, thats em·pha'·sis on the wrong syl·la'·ble.

Good emphasis, none the less!
(How come that's not a TubeNet thong!?)

"Uuuuuuuh, he said 'equipment'"
"Yeah, heh, heh heh, heh, and he said 'wedgie!'"

Boanerges wrote:find a design for a TubeNet thong

Doc, that's OK. Because of short vision, one brand of computers says Apple instead of Xerox.

Doc wrote:I understand. I'm just the idea guy. Other folks have to step up, too.

If I ever win the lotto, we'll have our damned calendar.

I don't have a lot of cash, but I'm sure I could find some to kick into such a project.