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I wanted to throw something to you guys. I was talking to an old band director of mine, and he made the comment about the set-up of a brass quintet. His thoughts, were that an F tuba blends into a brass quintet better than a CC tuba not (completely) because of the type of sound it has, but because simplly of its tuning. For example, my brass quintets current layout is:

2 Bb trumpets
1 F Horn
1 Bb/F trombone
1 CC tuba

Everything else is either in Bb or F, and I'm in C. So when we come to tune, any note that would be a good note for them to tune to, isn't an open tone on my horn. If I use an F tuba, then the layout is much better because now the quintet could tune to an F with all instruments being on an open tone.

This next part is more logical than realistic, because while it might be true, it probably not noticeable. Say we have the brass quintet with the F tuba set up. The blend is much better because when chords are hit, you don't get (for example) four instruments playing open chords, which are naturally louder, harsher, however you'd like to call it, and one instrument with a fourth valve down (or something like that). If the tuba were on an open tone like the rest of the quintet (or with only one valve down), the blend "technically" could be better. Again, I dunno how much of this is noticeable, but it makes sense to me.

Discuss.

I use a CC for quintet and have never had a problem with blending or tuning. I think that if I had the option of a bass tuba for quintet I would use it, but not because of this "open tone" thing you mention. I would use it because there would be less of a chance of me overpowering our quintet.

Ralph

As far as tuning goes dont you do a basic tuning before you practice or reherse tuning should not be an issue in any ensemble small or large.
Now as far as choosing CC or F tuba, if you whant to get really crazy about what will sound best then use both, in some situations and peices you will find that the part writing is very open and the tuba part (or bass part in general) is playing in the lower register and acting as the brick and mortor of the entire ensemble and you really have to support everyone in this situation your best option is a CC.
in other situations the part writing is close and in these situations blending is key and more often then not you will be playing in the middle to high register obviously then you would want to use an F tuba.
Again this is getting crazy about sound, if you have a good control over your CC you can use it for just about any peice of brass quintet music, just remember to have fun with it.

Tuning is MOSTLY , not horn!

Perhaps your band director should have mentioned overtones instead of tuning. I can see where he's coming from, but I don't think it matters much. What happens when the trumpets play C trumpets? This isn't uncommon, and more pieces are being written for C trumpets. I play an F in quintet because my CC is too big. I really want to play a CC in quintet, but something like a 2145, 621, or Miraphone 184.

If you're playing a 2165 CC tuba in your quintet and you have an F, play the F.

That is all...

Forget about tuning--if you can play in tune, the horn doesn't really matter.

However, timbre is another matter--and that opens the issue of whether a brass quintet is a bunch of soloists or a choir.

A woodwind quintet is made up of instruments of wildly different timbre, so I view it as a bunch of soloists playing together, as contrasted with, say, a string quartet.

Ideally, if a brass quintet's goal were to sound like a choir, then instrumentation might be 2 trumpets+3 trombones or 2 cornets, Eb tenor, euphonium and tuba. If the idea is a bunch of soloists, then perhaps flugel, trumpet, horn, trombone and tuba.

Regardless, to my ear, a contrabass tuba just doesn't sound quite right for brass quintet unless it's a very small tuba. A bass tuba has a bit more "edge"; perhaps a cimbasso would work better than an F or Eb tuba.

Another issue is the tessitura of the bass line in a quintet. In general, it seems to lie mostly in the staff or above and is very comfortable on a bass tuba. The "cash register" on a contrabass tuba is largely wasted in most situations.

Ok, so I meant to have a few ideas put aside which I didn't think about. Obviously, if you can't play in tune with the quintet to begin with, the horn won't matter.

I guess it would be more accurate to say that tuning to a quintet with an F tuba would be easier (putting aside quirks) than on a CC tuba. Even though you won't be using the same exact finger combinations between each instrument, it is more likely that they will be similiar.

I didn't want this to go in the direction of "You should all be using F tubas in quintet no matter what because of blah blah blah and blah," I just wanted to toss out the concept I had been thinking about. So I don't think tuning is the only reason to play a specific horn in a quintet.

Your comment about playing 'open' chords with one instrument having one valve down doesn't make any sense to me.

Think about this. The quintet is asked to hold a Db major chord. CC Tuba on low Db, near pedal C. The way the quintet is scored, the trumpet are playing Db trumpets (bear with me, hypothetical). The 1st trumpet is playing a Db in the staff. Aside from the natural tone difference between the trumpet and tuba, you've got a completely different sound coming from the two because of the valves. The trumpet has an open Db coming, and the tuba has a 5 valve Db coming. A little stuffy? Maybe, tends on horn. Now, if it were a C major horn with the CC tuba on a pedal C and first trumpet on a C, both are played open.

That's the idea, obviously there are lots of other factors in choosing which horn, and I don't believe this one (whether right or wrong) should be the only one. Just something to think about.

Playing in tune is playing in tune. Bottom line. You are either in tune or you are out of tune. It doesn't really matter what key the instrument is in. If the people in the ensemble play in tune and make the necessary adjustments to fit in the chord, it doesn't matter what kind of horns they may be playing.

Ralph

My post is a little off topic, but the most helpful advice my quintet has recieved is also the most simple..."listen up for style and down for intonation". Meaning trumpets set the style for the rest of the group and the tuba lays the pitch down so the rest can tune the chords. This doesn't mean you don't have to listen for intonation, for all of you thinking that, it just means that you have to be that much better at playing in tune so you don't mess up the whole group. Hope this helps someone.

My reaction is that the ear is probably most USED to hearing the overtones of typically made instruments in a group:

orchestral brass overtones (C trumpets, F/Bb horn, Bb/F t-bone, F or CC tuba)
brass band (Bb cornets, Bb trumpets (which are leaning more towards cornet these days), F horn, Bb t-bone, Eb or BBb tuba.

If you're playing out of Canadian Brass intermediate books, well being in tune with a bunch of Bb/F players might be an issue. If you're playing any other music, don't bother tuning at all. In fact, if you want to make things even more interesting, if you KNOW you're playing flat one day, pull out.

But in all seriousness though, it shouldn't matter on what key an instrument is pitched. None of the notes that you'll be tuning for if using a CC tuba will be a bad tendancy note for any CC tuba. If it is, the tuba may be crap! (or the player, but it's always the equipment, right?)

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I call a truce! Actually, I think it's more of a surrender...I could toss little rebutals out there to comments everyone made, but it's not worth it. I'll spend that extra time practicing instead!.

In fact, I should have probably done that in the first place.

Well, I hardly think the idea was something he devoutly believed and was teaching to all of his students (he teaches junior at the moment, so the F tuba vs. CC tuba in brass quintet argument doesnt' quiet happen ). It was more of something he had heard once upon a time and had tossed it my way when we were having lunch the other day catching up. He wasn't trying to tell me that F tuba > CC tuba or something, and even if he was, I wouldn't listen to him. He's a trumpet player. But I listened to his idea, thought about it, and wondered if you guys had an input on it. Obviously every thought it to be a non-valid idea. That's all.

DaTubaKid wrote:I wouldn't listen to him. He's a trumpet player. Obviously every thought it to be a non-valid idea.

Now there you go! You can't go off listening to trumpet players! All they wanna do is BS and play high!!

Ralph

TexTuba wrote:

DaTubaKid wrote:I wouldn't listen to him. He's a trumpet player. Obviously every thought it to be a non-valid idea.

Now there you go! You can't go off listening to trumpet players! All they wanna do is BS and play high!!
Ralph

You almost have it right, Ralph. Remember the trumpet player slogan:

Higher! Louder! Faster!

TubaRay wrote:Higher! Louder! Faster!

And...

Bb trumpet? No, C is better! No, Eb is better! No, F is Better!!!
(No, G is better!, No, piccolo Bb is even better!)

And don't forget the "Hi, I'm (insert name here) and I'm better than you."

Having played trumpet in high school, yea, I definitely had an ego and thought I was better than everyone else.

And it was all about playing high. Which unfortunately did hell to my tuba chops

Lead trumpet in jazz ensemble + First tuba in symphonic band = OW.

Summary:

The "pitch tendencies" of brass instruments in particular keys is an issue for beginners. School bandmasters who must deal with young (and possibly unmotivated) beginners are aware of this.

All professionals and all amateurs who are at least somewhat serious have long since learned to play in tune most of the time, and create a consistent tone in the various registers of their instruments. They may still have playing issues, but at least not the issues of beginners.

Here's a minimum tuning ability standard. Get your tuner. Play a note with your eyes closed, then open your eyes and look at the tuner. Practice until the tuner tells you that you are on pitch. Now, you can play in equal temperament, which is a good starting point.

Next, play in a group and adjust pitch to match the group. Mostly, the tuba should set the overall pitch, but be prepared to be flexible.

I recommend getting the Verne Reynolds "150 Intonation Excercises for Brass." It is written for brass quinete, with score and complete set of parts. It's a classic set of exercises for ensemble ear training.

Cheers,
Allen Walker

TWO ABSOLUTES IN MUSIC:

1. Play in tune.

2. Play in time.

Whether it's a CC, F, BBb, EEb, ZZ, Q, whatever....it's gotta be done to the best of your ability.

I've used both CC and F in the same quintet concert. Why? The sound, of course. The instrument should make your job easier....if it's easier to play something on F then on CC, then, by all means....

(let me qualify myself....I'm not referring to range, exclusively. Your range on any tuba should be fairly similar. I'm referring to tone quality, blend, etc....if it's easier to play nice and dark on a CC and the music calls for it, then I'm playing the CC....if I'm playing the Etler, well.....I'm pulling out the Bible AND the F.)

Enjoy the music you're making....that's the important thing....that's what it's there for.....

OH....btw.....

My former quintet NEVER used a tuning regimen. When asked why we wouldn't tune (even before a concert) our response was simple:

"We never said we didn't tune, we said we never used a tuning regimen....we tune CONSTANTLY during rehearsals and performance".

Try it sometime....no....ALL the time....