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I've got an OLD King BBb that I love the sound of. I got to do a side by side comparison versus the new MW Howard Johnson BBb this spring. I liked the sound of my horn better, but the MW had much better projection. The projection difference was confirmed by two experts.

I obviously can't change the bell and bows, but I'm wondering if the projection could be improved with a different leadpipe (without too much change in tone). Another aspect that I don't like about the horn currently is that it is a bit difficult to move around on. By analogy, it is like manual steering compared to other tubas I've played that had power steering (like the Wilson Eb - feels almost like it plays iteself). Would this be affected by the leadpipe choice also?

Part of my reason for the question is I also play Eb, and my Eb's are of a low to intermediate level and I've outgrown my current Eb's and I'd like to upgrade. I can't buy (right now) both an Eb and a new Bb horn. I played briefly my teachers CC horn last year and she was amazed how I sounded (and played) on that horn versus mine. So she thinks I could use an upgrade in the Bb department too.

If I buy a new Bb, then the Eb will have to wait a couple more years. My current Bb is much better than my Eb's, so I'm kind of hoping I could spend maybe $500 in modifications to the Bb that would improve projection and playability and then still be able to buy a new Eb. Then a couple years down the road buying a new Bb. (I'm not going to switch to CC)

So....... Would a new leadpipe address my complaints about my Bb horn? (At least for a couple more years as I slowly improve and get pickier - already happening) Or, go ahead and replace the Bb now.

Then the change in "feel" might help in moving around on the horn (improve the steering) but not projection. If I'm understanding correctly.

As far as projection, does this boil down to the American versus German debate? That is, a German style horn will always project better, while an American style will have a more spreading sound. This then would imply that there is little that can be done to improve the projection of an American style horn (I'm ignoring any mouthpiece impacts). So then, one just picks whichever tone style they like and accepts the compromises of one style over the other?

To answer my own question then: Change the leadpipe to improve the "steering" and don't worry about the projection so much.

Not to change my own thread, but something I've been pondering is then, is one style (German vs American) more suited for Orchestra and one for Concert bands? I realize this is a huge oversimplification as music style can vary widely for either group. Obviously either can work in both, but is there a trend nevertheless? I only do the rare Orchestral playing. I play concert band, dixie and oompah bands and quintet.


Bloke, if you are on your way to NYC here's an good gig to check out

June 30
HOJO5
Harlem in the Himalayas
jazz concert with Howard Johnson
$15 in advance; $20 day of
7:00 pm - 9:00 pm
presented by The Jazz Museum in Harlem
Rubin Museum of Himalayan Art
150 West 17th Street
New York, NY 10011
212-620-5000

Next weekend (Aug 4th) Gravity plays at Sweet Rhythm to celebrate HoJo's 65th birthday - and my wife and I are making the road trip - Yippee!

Philip Jensen wrote:Not to change my own thread, but something I've been pondering is then, is one style (German vs American) more suited for Orchestra and one for Concert bands?

My personal opinion is that the American sound concept is better in bands. The tubas are frequently asked to play transcribed string bass parts, and that requires a broader sound.

The American sound is also popular (with some) in many orchestras. But here it may be because that sound is colorful and individual, allowing the tuba to be more of an individual color instrument than an extension of the trombone section.

Personally, I think the broader more colorful sound blends better with the trombones, because it adds something they lack.

There is so much variation within both categories, however, that despite my abiding interest in understanding their differences, there are other differences that may be even more profound. Is a Miraphone different from an Alexander? Absolutely. And that difference might be greater than the difference between either and a given American-style instrument. But most non-tuba-players would have a hard time seeing any difference in the appearance of a 186 and a 163, even if they were in the same room. There is something at work here not related to the tall bell, narrow plan, and rotary valves.

Rick "who wonders what a Mirapahone with an Alexander bell would sound like" Denney

Doc wrote

What is your teacher's suggestion as to which horns to upgrade first? What horn is required most in your playing? Traditional thought would suggest contrabass first, then bass,

She's leaning towards the new HoJo Bb tuba, partly due to the price. She knew I needed a new Eb, but when she heard me on her horn she said I could use a new Bb too. She hasn't heard me on any other Bb tubas. I like the Miraphone 191 and 1291 and would need to compare them side by side with the MW.

Any Eb I am considering is probably $2000 more than the HoJo model. I could quickly have the money for the HoJo by saving the bonus money for teaching one semester of my online course. It will take 2 semesters for an Eb - of course there's the retaining wall to replace, replace the car, etc.

I could more quickly replace the Bb (assuming the MW - and not replace, but rather add to the collection). However my Bb is a much better horn than the Eb's. I get lots of compliments about my sound on the Bb - rich and creamy. The Eb's have many more pitch issues. I use Bb for concert band and dixie and the Eb for oompah and the occasional quintet. I would like to do more Eb playing, particularly now that I've got two new decent players (Bb) in the concert band section so I don't have to carry the bulk of the load anymore. Plus I'd like to follow the progression from dixie to more modern styles of jazz and I'd like to do that on an Eb horn

Don't forget the mouthpiece in this equation. For example, on my Bession my Wick 1 gives a broad, velvety tone that leans towards the traditional Conn tone and blends better with band, whilst my Wick 2 gives more core, a little more projection, but some might say a drier tone. So if you do go changing lead pipes and/or bells, make sure you are prepared to try different mouthpieces to give a final fine tuning (pun intended) to the tone you are searching for.

Doc wrote

Go somewhere and try a bunch of BBb's and Eb's all at the same time.

.

I've been slowly working on that. I have one sister-in-law in Manhattan and the other is in Maryland, so Dillons and BBC are frequent stops . Unfortunately they always seem to be out of one of the horns I want to do direct comparisons of - of course the new MW is just coming out so I've only been able to compare that with my own horn.

Patience is my middle name!

I like playing both Bb and Eb equally well and ideally would like to be 50/50 in terms of playing time. I've reached the point were both horns are holding me back a bit (Eb more so) The new MW is certainly a great horn, especially for the price, but I need to do more comparisons before deciding it it the horn for me. I don't want to buy a horn becuase I can afford to do so quicker. Lucky for me, if I truly sounded better on a horn that was $2000 more than another one, my wife would tell me to go with the more expensive one - although I might have to wait a little longer. She's heard me play enough tubas to qualify as an expert judge - she even sat through 2 hrs of listening to me test horns in the elephant room at this years TUSAB conference - however she now says she'll never do that on a Saturday again - way too noisy

What model King tuba do you have? If it is the 4/4 model with the detachable bell, you could obtain a forward bell and have plenty of projection.

If people compliment you on your sound, what more could you want? I say stick with the horn that gets people to walk up to you and say something nice. I've tried those easy playing horns, and trust me the compliments dry up. They feel great and require little effort, but the tone sucks and the audience knows it. Something about free blowing, projection, and perfect intonation sucks the life and the beauty out of the tuba sound.

-Eric

Philip Jensen wrote:I would like to do more Eb playing, particularly now that I've got two new decent players (Bb) in the concert band section so I don't have to carry the bulk of the load anymore. Plus I'd like to follow the progression from dixie to more modern styles of jazz and I'd like to do that on an Eb horn

It sounds like you have more plans with a new Eb than BB.

Philip Jensen wrote:Another aspect that I don't like about the horn currently is that it is a bit difficult to move around on. By analogy, it is like manual steering compared to other tubas I've played that had power steering (like the Wilson Eb - feels almost like it plays iteself). Would this be affected by the leadpipe choice also?

I notice from your signature that your King was made in 1913.

Has it ever had a valve job? Leaky valves can make a horn difficult to get around on and if yours haven't been done, they leak a fair amount. Even NEW King pistons are pretty leaky.

By valve job, I mean sending the valves to Andersons to have them replated, the casings honed, and the valves refit to the casings. 'twill result in "better than new" valves.

I think the cost for a four front action tuba would be around $500, top action will be more (but I'm not a repairman so don't quote me on that).

Has it ever had a valve job? Leaky valves can make a horn difficult to get around on and if yours haven't been done, they leak a fair amount. Even NEW King pistons are pretty leaky.

No Valve job, but the pistons are actually in pretty good shape. I think it sat unused for many years. Matt Walters has done some work for me and he says it is one of the nicest sounding Bb's he's played.

If people compliment you on your sound, what more could you want?

The compliments are from the people in the ensembles I play in. I'd like a little more sound to reach the back of the auditorium.

Yes, it is an OLD 1 piece bell horn. It is actually very similar to the new King Bb except mine is top action

Philip Jensen wrote:To answer my own question then: Change the leadpipe to improve the "steering" and don't worry about the projection so much.

Sounds good on paper, anyway. Is this a fairly well understood science, can one just walk into one of the better tuba surgeons' shops and ask for a new leadpipe, with the desired playing properties?

Yes,
One can just walk into a repair shop and ask for a new leadpipe with the desired qualities.......... but, there's no guarantee that you'll get it! There are just too many variables to be able to guarantee that an antique King tuba will play like a new horn by just doing "X" to it.

My guess is that it is a hand-made instrument by H.N. White, a well-designed instrument that may have leaky valves and any number of leaking ferrules throughout the instrument. The projection and intonation would be hampered if the valves are not aligned properly. If it is a potentially great instrument, it may be playing well-enough even while leaking, but just will not project as well. If Matt says the BBb is a nice player, then maybe you should look for an Eb.

Rick Denney wrote:
Rick "who wonders what a Mirapahone with an Alexander bell would sound like" Denney

Craig Fuller at the University of Nebraska in Lincoln (Omaha Symphony) plays (or played one for many years) I believe this is it:
http://www.rdhdance.org/vnews/display.v ... c8ddf6f036