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fulerzoo wrote:Is there such a thing as the "American sound" and the "European sound"? If so, how would you define each? In what situations is one preferable over the other? Which horns fall into which class?

Hmmm. Might I suggest just hanging around Tubenet for a few months, while spending your spare time reading the archives? This subject comes up again and again.

The answer is: Yes, there is a difference. Or, no, there is no difference. It depends on who you ask.

But I think there is a difference, and that difference is measureable. Dale Phelps once describe the American sound concept as a blossom of sound, more about foundation than focus, and the German concept as a column of sound, more about focus than foundation. European concepts seem to be more oriented towards providing the contrabass of the trombone section--explicitly in traditional Italian practice, but more mental in other regions. American orchestras seem to trend towards the tuba as an invidual color instrument providing a distinct voice.

Most Europeans use bass tubas as their primary instruments, and contrabass tubas as their big gun to pull out when needed. Americans use contrabass tubas as their primary instrument, and their F tuba when they want more focus and clarity.

Some have said that this stems from the American band tradition, where the tuba technology crossed over from bands far more than in other countries, and perhaps because of the commercial success of professional wind bands in the early 20th century.

But Stokowski wanted more of the sound he heard in Europe when he asked Philip Donatelli to get the large York that has become the CSO York. Countering that, it was Reiner who wanted a more European sound when he asked Jacobs to set aside that big York to play a Viennese F tuba.

There is no doubt that the big American tubas, when at their best, provide a broad, colorful tone with lots of life and character. And big, German-style rotary tubas provide a dark, powerful sound. But there is nothing consistent about each camp. Is a rotary King such as the one used by Bell in the New York Philharmonic different from the CSO York? And is that difference greater than the difference between, say, an Alexander kaisertuba and a Miraphone? The trend is just that--a trend that may in some cases be overwhelmed by other characteristics and trends.

Rick "who needs to repeat the Tuba Sound experiment" Denney

Hey, Rick: next time you do some sound samples for analysis, please add in a BBb Besson from about 25 years ago when they were still made properly to get a sample of the third great tradition that uses tubas, brass band, to go along with American concert band tubas, like the Conn 2XJ and the orchestral traditions with their various famous instruments. Thanks.

Rick Denney wrote:......Stokowski wanted more of the sound he heard in Europe when he asked Philip Donatelli to get the large York that has become the CSO York. Countering that, it was Reiner who wanted a more European sound when he asked Jacobs to set aside that big York to play a Viennese F tuba.

Rick, I have t admit a little confussion about your statement. Is it a typo? What was Stokowski trying to have Donetelli emulate?

Robert,

Thanks for your input.

I wondered about that, too, but I thought that the Kaiser tubas tended to be tall-belled instruments. Am I mistaken, or was Stokowski not too particular about what form his big tubas took?

Europeans tend to sound like this guy:



and Americans tend to sound like this guy:



Happy to clear that up!

"It's a choke!"

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:Rick, I have t admit a little confussion about your statement. Is it a typo? What was Stokowski trying to have Donetelli emulate?

All Stokowski wanted was big, to create an organ-like sound, if I remember what I read in Song and Wind correctly.

Stokowski may have never even heard of York. I suspect Donatelli talked to the York people about his conductor's requirements, and the two prototypes that emerged came out of that discussion.

My point was that Stokowski, in apparent attempt to be more European, went bigger and fatter, while Reiner, also in an apparent attempt to be more European, went smaller and narrower. That tells me that there is no unified "European" sound or tuba concept, at least not in the perceptions of two very different conductors.

Rick "thinking the CSO was built to functional requirements, not to physical specifications" Denney

Jonathantuba wrote:I rather wonder how much of the difference in sound is determined by the bell diameter as American tubas traditionally have larger bells than German tubas?

Jonathan, I think the biggest differences are made in the rate of flare, rather than the diameter of the bell. As near as I can tell, for two bells having the same flare, but different diameter bells, the one with the larger diameter bell will tend to have a more omnidirectional "diffuse"sound.

I've heard a BBb played with its standard detachable upright bell and then with a cylinder of copper sheet substituted. Intonation was about the same, as was the timbre, but the pipe-bell seemed to be very directional.

As far as brass bands and "tuba sound", I doubt that one in a dozen band directors can even tell the difference between Bb and Eb basses playing the same note. Sometimes we obsess overmuch, I think.

Ohhh! I am an american SUFFERING in a german orchestra, and, there are even other americans in my brass section, but, nothing seems to work...