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ok I am just a sophmore in High School but I am looking to buy a horn so I dont have to deal with highschool horns that I may have to share or wait to have fixed or not get what I want or what have you so I am looking for a good BBb with 4-5 valves for 5000 or under maybe under 6000 if I can get the money my dad has agreed to pay half so any help would be appreciated umm I have been looking at Miraphones and B&S and VMI but a professional opion would be great thanks much

-TubaTom

Under $5,000 : King 2341 - plays great, sounds great, might need to have the valves cleaned up a bit but still for the price this horn is a superb bargain.

Under $6,000 : Miraphone 1291 4V - one of the best playing piston BBb's IMHO.
Also to think of , Miraphone 187, 191, MW - new Howard Johnson BBb 4 Piston FA (should be available in the comming months)

best of luck

TubaTom:

The "best" horn for you, BBb or otherwise, is the one that sounds good, feels good, and is affordable. You have many options among generally available horns:

Allora 186 (WWBW house brand, made in ?)
Cerverny 681, 686
Conn 5j
King 2341
Meinl Weston 25, 2011TA, 2011FA, 2011RA (the 2011s are brand new and the first production run should be in in a couple of months)
Miraphone 186, 187, 191, 1291
B&S PT-1
VMI 2103, 3301
Yamaha YBB-321
Dalyan ??? (several models, Chinese made)


All of the above are 4/4 size BBb tubas with 4 valves -some have 5v versions available. Most will fall well within your budget although some of the Miras, the PT-1 and the Yammie might be pushing it close. Most of these are also available used, in various conditions.

Unfortunately, there is no place in the immediate Chicago area where you can go and test even a small sample of this list. You'll need to check out WWBW, Dillon's, BBC, and Custom.

You, guided by your teacher and/or band director, will be the best judge of sound. Feel is up to you. Affordability is up to you, your folks and the job market.

Full disclosure: I'm selling a VMI 2103 and this poster and I have corresponded briefly. Each of the above horns have their fans and detractors. Check the archives.

I believe you can find a Miraphone 186 here and there for under $6000.

I strongly urge purchasing slightly used and saving the $$, unless you are sure this instrument will take you through college to your first post-graduate professional gigs.

BTW: I believe the Allora is made by M-W.

I really love the way the Miraphone 187-4U looks and my friends that have mira's love em to death I actually own a mira but its a 30 year old student model

There has been some discussion as to the parentage of the Allora tubas. Some say they're MW, some say B&S/VMI, and some say China. Actual maker may also vary by model.

The Mira 187 is a 186 that has taken "supplements" I've never played one (I have played a 186) but those that do seem to like the broader sound. I think Schlep has posted a lot about this one.

A recent 186/187 thread

viewtopic.php?t=12617&start=0&postdays= ... aphone+187

I believe I want a Mirafone for sure but I need help on choosing the right model I really dont know alot about bore sizes and bell sizes and anyother stuff that is essencial to know

With the hope of not sounding like a stupid adult:
Bell, bore, doesn't really matter. What matters is the sound, how well in tune you can play it, the ergonomics for you, have I left anything out?
I would definitely look for a used horn at this stage of your playing. There's the money issue, and there's the fact that at this stage of your playing it's impossible to know what you'll want in 5-6 years, and a good used horn will probably hold it's value. Mirafones get bought and sold every day, as do some other great horns, all you have to do is look around.
Good Luck.
Peace.
ASG

A few years ago I went to an October Tubafest [NOT called Octubafest (tm) ], but essentially the same thing. I listened to a wide variety of brands and sizes. The one that sounded the best to me in the audience, of a wide range of 4/4 and 5/4 instruments turned out to be the Miraphone 186 (the CC version). Not too big of a sound, not too small -- "just right". Note, this was among those playing SOLOS.

Today's trend is to buy some monstrous 5/4 size tuba, to make more noise .. er sound. If you are the only tuba player in a large orchestra, this makes a lot of sense. In High School, you don't need something that big.

In Jr. Hi., I played a Miraphone 186 -- very nice. In High School, it was a MW 25 -- very nice. The Miraphone 187 would have a slightly bigger sound. The King 2341 has a fairly large bell, and a broader sound. My 20" Conn 56J is the CC version of this horn. For high school playing, I would recommend something slightly less broad, so it could blend better in a quintet, sound a bit more focused at state solo/ensemble contest. I actually played the King 2341 and a VMI 3301 side-by-side and personally liked the 3301 better. Slightly smaller bell, a bit more focus or "core" to the sound. So you might try one of those. I fear the Conn 5J recommended in an earlier post might be just a smidge too small in the bore, but since I've never played one I wouldn't rule it out. Seems like a reasonable 4/4 size instrument also.

Definitely look for a used one. The FS page at this site (chisham.com) is a good place to look. http://www.thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm is another. Dillons and Baltimore Brass can be found from the links section of this site or via a google search. www.bassclefbrass.com also has a good selection. Lee Stofer ( www.tubameister.com ) occasionally has some nice used horns available. I'm not trying to exclude anyone -- these are the ones that come to mind.

The advantage of a used one is that you may be able to re-sell it later with little or no loss of value (i.e. money). Someone else has already suffered the depreciation.

HTH,

thanks to all I have to go to a legion band gig tonight playing one of the schools Yamaha 4 valvers

What Doc said. Until you really know what you want, you can't go wrong with a used 186 so long as you take care of it. I'm just more esoteric than most, with my Besson 3-valve BBb comper, as I am left-handed, blonde, near-sighted and have a "slight" preoccupation with all things British, plus a short pinky. And those are my good points. Hence, my choice of tuba. Your mileage may vary, but a good used Miraphone 186 is definitely good for the long haul.

I am pretty much stuck on Miraphone after our concert got rained out earlier tonight I had a chat with mr orland my band director and told him I was in the market for a new tuba he said,"dont settle for anything not german" I had to laugh at that one

Reading through these responses, It seems most everyone has a high regard for the legendary Miraphone 186. I share in that view.

I have just acquired a new goldbrass Miraphone 188-5 CC. Thus, my Miraphone "made-like-a-tank" 186-5 CC with hard case and gig bag is for sale. It dates from 1976, but is in amazing condition cosmetically. The sound and intonation are superior. While I don't necessarily recommend a 5 valve CC tuba to a young high school bandsman, if you are interested send me a PM and I'll send photos. The tuba, hard case, and gig bag is priced well below your price range.

tubatom91 wrote:I am pretty much stuck on Miraphone after our concert got rained out earlier tonight I had a chat with mr orland my band director and told him I was in the market for a new tuba he said,"dont settle for anything not german" I had to laugh at that one

Hmm. My mother's maiden name was Rumfelt. But then again my dad's family also had Cox, Worth, Winfield, Scott, and others, and my direct ancestors on Hilton Head Island at the edge of the Georgia/South Carolina border probably heard the Wesley brothers preach in person (as the whole family is still Methodist) so I'll stay north of the channel, thank you very much. Lager and doppelbock are great, but pale ale and best bitter are much better. A couple of other things come to mind:

Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium!
Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum.
Deine Zauber binden wieder, was die Mode streng geteilt,
Alle Menschen werden Brüder, wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Ãœber alles in der Welt,
Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze
Brüderlich zusammenhält,
Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
Von der Etsch bis an den Belt -
Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Ãœber alles in der Welt.

Yes, you have to admit, when spoken with dynamic articulation and a good trilled "R," in a forthright baritone voice, "Herren mit tuben," sounds a lot more impressive than, "Guys with tubas."

BTW: there is an "o" in "acoustic."

God Save the Queen!

hmm is there somthing you trying to say in that or is that som kind of nazi song?

No. It is unfortunate that the masterful Haydn tune and the inspiring von Fallersleben lyrics became associated in such a negative way, when in reality every patriotic person of whatever country holds his/her country in highest esteem, which is really all the words actually say. Moreover, would you expect any citizen of whatever country to say anything but the highest regards for his/her country?

Another verse of the German national anthem talks about the virtues of the women, the wine, and the loyalty of the people. Folks, there's nothing there that wasn't extolled as a virtue in the book of Proverbs.

The British national anthem is not much better, when in the second verse it talks about, "Confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks;" even the psalms have portions praying for the enemy to trip over themselves.

But, of course, the USA anthem has the "best" tune, whose origins are in a song written and sung at a "Gentlemen's" club of amateur musicians, so it's no wonder F S Key knew the tune, ostensibly a tribute to the Greek pantheon inventing music as inspiration and diversion, as he probably tipped a number of tankards while singing it himself.

So, it seems you can either have a great tune and words that are criticized, or great words, especially the 4th verse of our national anthem, which is still on every USA coin, and hard to sing.

But then there is the jewel of a ditty in North America called, "O Canada!" to use the correct French spelling of "O," which has both. Sometimes our most highly esteemed northern neighbors get it right and fly right over us like the aurora, while the rest of us grovel in the gutter, usually not even bothering to look up.

Let me just put in one more vote for the new King 2341. Man, that tuba plays great! That being said, you can't go wrong with a good used Miraphone 186. You can get them fairly cheap and they shouldn't lose much value if you take care of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you're getting a handmade horn (Hirsbrunner, Rudy, MW Fafner, etc) you should be able to get just about any model of BBb for under 6K (or at least a good used version).

If I were only playing one horn and it was a BBb, it would be the new King 2341. . . my 2 cents, feel free to take it or leave it.

--T. J.

i really dont know why this came up? from tubas to german folk songs?????? I'm up for a folk tune. but wow that was an unpredictable turn of events. and sorry to name it as a nazi song but I'd never heard it before and I read it at midnight

The "folk song" you refer to is the German National Anthem.

The first phrase quoted by iiiipopes in his first post is from Friedrich Schiller's Ode to Joy, which constitutes the final movement of Symphony No. 9 by Ludwig von Beethoven. I trust you know who he was but the following link might help:

http://www.lucare.com/immortal/ode.html

We all love tubas, big ones, short ones, fat ones, tall ones (isn't there a song somewhere here?). But the tuba is a tool we use to play the music.

It's always about the music.

O Freunde, nicht diese To"ne!
Sondern lasst uns angenehmere
anstimmen, und freudenvollere!

Oh friends, not these tones!
Let us raise our voices in more
pleasing and more joyful sounds!

Hey, Doc - thanks. I had rattled along enough.

Hey, tubatom91 - you started it when you quoted your band director as to say not to buy a tuba that wasn't German.

OK - to round out the history with dates for perspective:

Franz Josef Haydn, who wrote the tune, lived from 1732 to 1809. August Heinrich Hoffmann, who wrote the words and used Hoffmann von Fallersleben as his pen name, lived from 1798 to 1874. The Nazi regime only came to power in 1932, lasting until the end of WWII in 1945, and in the meantime, through the propaganda machine headed by Goebbels, coopted EVERYTHING, including Wagner and others as well, to Nazi purposes.

So, where were we? Oh, yeah - you can get a new Miraphone 186 for about $6000 or less, but then you have the cost of a case and/or gig bag, and the burden of suffering the depreciation. But since they are plentiful, you can get a used one in great shape for usually much less, @ $3000 to $4000, and you may even get the gig bag thrown in. Even if it has an issue or two, because of the quality and availability of both parts and good people to work on them, it is a good investment.

Excuse me, it's time for me to go practice on my Besson now. Community band is starting back up in less than a month, and I don't want to sound like, well, you know.