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Drum Machine for gigs
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:13 pm
by Anterux
Hi.
I have a family quartet. We play at weddings and other liturgical services.
We play keyboard (as piano or organ. we use Alesis nanopiano), flute, tuba, mellophone, guitar, small percussion, etc. (not at the same time, of course). And we sing.
We want to play other kinds of music like pop, rock, jazz.
For that we need a drum machine.
I was looking at ZOOM RT-223. And others around the price of this one
Do you know any software drum machine (with presets)?
Any help from your experience?
Kind regards,
Antero.
Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:16 am
by tubatooter1940
I have a drum machine. It is said to be of high quality. The symbols sound like symbols.
I refuse to use it. It depresses me to be stuck in that rhythm rut.
I would rather have a live player shaking only a egg with seeds in it that any infernal machine at any price.
A live player can use dynamics, become excited and be spontaeneous(spelling)?. Machines cannot!
Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:44 pm
by Steve Inman
Steve (who plays guitar almost weekly in a church setting -- both acoustic and electric) has used a DR5 drum machine. This and similar capable models accept two foot pedals to start, stop, change from an "A" rhythm pattern to a "B" pattern, and back again.
Steve (who plays in a church group with a live drummer) much prefers the live drummer. But when you want to do an up-tempo song w/o a live drummer that REALLY needs drums, then the next best thing is a drum machine, if it can be somewhat controlled via footswitches (or with your fingers if you're the keyboard player and not the guitarist -- whose fingers are occupied most of the time).
If the poster's family quartet has all family members playing instruments and no hands are free, then a drum machine may be a good solution -- until you can find another person to play drums with the group.
My drum machine knowledge is out of date. I do not know if there are software drum machines available (I assume this would be something that runs on a computer with audio output to speakers). All I can recommend is a drum machine that can accept TWO foot pedals. This is (I think) typical for the better models. Often one pedal will control start and stop functions and the second pedal lets you change from one rhythm pattern to another.
Cheers,
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:23 am
by tbn.al
I would rather have a live player shaking only a egg with seeds in it that any infernal machine at any price.
I played in a jazz sextet in the 70's with a great old time jazz pianist named Blakey Head. Our drummer got deathly ill a couple of hours before a gig and a replacement could not be found. The leader showed up at the gig with a very early drum machine. I'll never forget Blakely's words," I refuse to play with that damned infernal popping machine!" We played the first set with the drum machine and a piano player perched on the bench like a puffed up toad frog but his hands never touched the keys. After the leader came to his senses we did the next two sets with piano but no drum machine which proved to be a much more desirable solution to our problem. I adopted Blakely's position and have maintained it for the last 35 years.
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:28 am
by Gongadin
Anterux wrote:We want to play other kinds of music like pop, rock, jazz.
For that we need a drum machine.
No, for that you need a drummer.
tbn.al wrote:I would rather have a live player shaking only a egg with seeds in it that any infernal machine at any price...
I adopted Blakely's position and have maintained it for the last 35 years.
Eggs-actly. Drum machines are good for practice use, as metronomes, or for providing a rough idea on a demo tape for a REAL DRUMMER to listen to. Drum machines have no place in music, but they do seem to enjoy heavy usage in pop culture "entertainment".
Drummingly,
Steven
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:58 pm
by Steve Inman
tubahed wrote:Anterux wrote:We want to play other kinds of music like pop, rock, jazz.
For that we need a drum machine.
No, for that you need a drummer.
tbn.al wrote:I would rather have a live player shaking only a egg with seeds in it that any infernal machine at any price...
I adopted Blakely's position and have maintained it for the last 35 years.
Eggs-actly. Drum machines are good for practice use, as metronomes, or for providing a rough idea on a demo tape for a REAL DRUMMER to listen to. Drum machines have no place in music, but they do seem to enjoy heavy usage in pop culture "entertainment".
Drummingly,
Steven
1. Drum machines have improved a lot in the last 35 years. I can see this being a viable position 35 years ago.
2. "D.M.'s have NO PLACE IN MUSIC" ... is a statement of opinion, not a statement of fact.
3. I MUCH PREFER a live drumer -- 100 to 1. But if you DON'T HAVE ONE AVAILABLE, THEN I much prefer a good, modern drum machine to an egg shaker. Good luck playing rock / metal with an egg shaker!
4. As an engineer, I have data -- at a recent Roland / Boss gear clinic, guitarist Robert Marcello (who was quite amazing) created a demo recording, real-time, in a few minutes to show off a new piece of digital recording gear. This digital studio has basic drum machine capability, but is not even a fully capable drum machine. The end result was absolutely music -- a good percussion track with solid bass and guitar overdubs. Would a complete live band have been even better? Of course -- and I would have PREFERRED that. But in many situations, a drum machine carefully used can improve your musical situation. A drum machine poorly used can also yield poor results. Would I suggest this for live jazz -- probably not. But if you take the time to program entire songs in advance, modern drum machines can yield excellent results. Used more simplistically (as I often do) will yield passable results.
Those are Steve's opinions and observations. In my opinion, the original poster CAN use a drum machine to improve the overal musical presentation of his family quartet's music.
Cheers,
IMNSHO
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:50 pm
by Gongadin
Steve Inman wrote: "D.M.'s have NO PLACE IN MUSIC" ... is a statement of opinion, not a statement of fact.
Steve, any 'discussion' regarding this topic is just going to be an exercise in stating opinions and preferences. We'll just have to agree to disagree! I can't think of one instance in which I've felt that a drum machine added to a person's or group's performance. In every instance I've wished that a human being doing ANYTHING was used instead. Do something creative with your arrangements, and have the band produce its own percussion - I'd rather hear one of the musicians tap the body of an acoustic guitar over hearing a programmed machine. Drum machines have no soul, no feeling. Quantize as much as you want. They're emotionless, and turn a potentially-beautiful organic experience into something surgical, calculated and sterile.
Passionately Percussionistic,
Steven
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:01 pm
by tofu
For a great take on the question get yourself a copy of "Merry Texas Christmas, Y'all" by Asleep At The Wheel and listen to their take on an old Christmas Favorite the they renamed "Swingin' Drummer Boy".
Really funny and at the same time great music with a viewpoint on drum machines.
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:02 pm
by Anterux
Thank you all for your opinions and knowledge.
I can understand that a good drum machine could , if well used, improve or give a new edge, for a while to this family group.
In the other hand, perhaps it would be more interesting, more original, and more self satisfying to arrange other means of giving percussion to our group. Maybe if we get the drum machine it will delay the progress of the group in making music that can please us. Or maybe it is something that we have to go thru to know.
We will think about it and make a decision.
Once again, thank you all.
Kind Regards,
Antero.
(sorry for strange English...)
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:13 pm
by GC
A drum machine is preferable to a really bad drummer. Fortunately, I've encountered very few who were so bad that we've needed to break out a machine.
Re: IMNSHO
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:06 pm
by Steve Inman
tubahed wrote:
Steve, any 'discussion' regarding this topic is just going to be an exercise in stating opinions and preferences. We'll just have to agree to disagree! I can't think of one instance in which I've felt that a drum machine added to a person's or group's performance. In every instance I've wished that a human being doing ANYTHING was used instead. Do something creative with your arrangements, and have the band produce its own percussion - I'd rather hear one of the musicians tap the body of an acoustic guitar over hearing a programmed machine. Drum machines have no soul, no feeling. Quantize as much as you want. They're emotionless, and turn a potentially-beautiful organic experience into something surgical, calculated and sterile.
Passionately Percussionistic,
Steven
I AGREE! (that we disagree!)
Here's more data -- have an expert drummer play a tune and "capture" the data digitally -- with velocity sensitivity active. Program this entire track into your drum machine and play it back. A good piece of gear can and will reproduce every nuance 100% the same as it was played -- "soul" and all. 100% exactly the same as the live drummer played it. Exactly the same. Drummer 100 miles away. And blindfolded, you won't be albe to tell whether it's the drummer or the machine. It will have soul, feeling, etc.
But, merely pick a canned track and loop that, and you'll be able to hear the difference 100 miles away. You've evidently experienced the "quick and dirty" use of a drum machine, and not a professionally "programmed" use.
Digital / midi gear has the capability of duplicating feeling, soul, and everything about a live drummer (with apologies to the live drummers who are threatened by this fact of technology). The only thing missing will be the sweat.
You are setting up an inaccurate straw man to knock down, so of course it falls over easily. Please broaden your viewpoint to include what can be done, and what frequently is done -- not just the failures that you have observed!
(And remember, I PREFER a live drummer to a machine -- 100 to 1! Because of flexibility and ability to change and adapt to various situations. And because I can chat with the drummer and discuss ideas and options. But not because he can play any better than a good drum machine is capable of playing.)
Cheers,
Credit Rating
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:42 am
by Gongadin
Steve Inman wrote: You've evidently experienced the "quick and dirty" use of a drum machine, and not a professionally "programmed" use.
Digital / midi gear has the capability of duplicating feeling, soul, and everything about a live drummer (with apologies to the live drummers who are threatened by this fact of technology). The only thing missing will be the sweat.
You are setting up an inaccurate straw man to knock down, so of course it falls over easily. Please broaden your viewpoint to include what can be done, and what frequently is done -- not just the failures that you have observed!
Steve, your assumptions about the amount and quality of experiences I've had seems to give me little credit. I've experienced drum machines when the technology was brand new, and I've experienced expert programming, expert sampling, et al. I have incredibly varied tastes in music - I couldn't broaden my viewpoint much more. I give everything a chance until it proves itself to be substandard. I know what can be done technically. I've worked on both sides of the recorder, as it were. Drum machines are still mechanical and are easily detectable. There's never the thrill of the moment, of spontaneity, of creativity, of the chance that the fill will wind up falling down the stairs in a train wreck. A machine reproduces the same exact non-breathing rigid performance everytime. Uninspired. I don't feel threatened by the technology because I know the machines are no substitute and no match for a human being. Perhaps we should take this discussion over to DrumSmith.com, or at least change this thread to discuss tubists being replaced by samplers. Why not just use a simulated tuba on recordings? It would be just as good, and no water to empty out of the machine!
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:11 am
by Tubaryan12
GC wrote:A drum machine is preferable to a really bad drummer. Fortunately, I've encountered very few who were so bad that we've needed to break out a machine.
If given the choice between some of the drummers I have played with lately in community bands and a drum machine, I would take the machine every day and twice on Sundays. Consider yourself lucky. In my area, there are a lot of folks passing themselves off as percussionists
This whole arguement is the same one that folks had about the fake bugles playing taps at funerals. Mix that with those who hate electric pianos. Simply put, if you need (or want) a machine, use a machine.
Re: Credit Rating
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:14 pm
by Steve Inman
tubahed wrote:Steve, your assumptions about the amount and quality of experiences I've had seems to give me little credit. I've experienced drum machines when the technology was brand new, and I've experienced expert programming, expert sampling, et al. I have incredibly varied tastes in music - I couldn't broaden my viewpoint much more. I give everything a chance until it proves itself to be substandard. I know what can be done technically. I've worked on both sides of the recorder, as it were. Drum machines are still mechanical and are easily detectable. There's never the thrill of the moment, of spontaneity, of creativity, of the chance that the fill will wind up falling down the stairs in a train wreck. A machine reproduces the same exact non-breathing rigid performance everytime. Uninspired. I don't feel threatened by the technology because I know the machines are no substitute and no match for a human being. Perhaps we should take this discussion over to DrumSmith.com, or at least change this thread to discuss tubists being replaced by samplers. Why not just use a simulated tuba on recordings? It would be just as good, and no water to empty out of the machine!
Steve's final summary comments on this thread:
You are correct -- I evidently made a poor assumption and I apologize for assuming lack of expertise.
My rebuttals are not an attempt to be controversial or rudely argumentative -- I'm trying to keep or move the discussion to quantifiable items. I'm trying to avoid phrases such as "easily detectable", "uninspired", "no match for a human", etc., which I think reveal more about your judgement regarding drum machines than how you arrived at this conclusion. I'm trying to show from specific example how my perspective may be valid.
I might say "humanizer features available for many years avoid the rigid, uninspired character older drum machinge used to have." (a data point from which to discuss) I would hope for: "ah grasshopper, but these humanizing features are no match for a human drummer for these three reasons: 1, 2, 3." No such counterpoint has been forthcoming -- only your conclusions: "easily detectable", "uninspired". For example, you did not refute my option of actually creating a digital recording of a real drummer and sequencing this as your drum track -- which would not be rigid at all -- it would be a precise duplication of a live drummer. I'm willing to learn from someone more knowledgable than I am, but I need some info, or some examples to demonstrate how and why I've misunderstood the situation.
Interestingly, you started with: "Drum machines have no place in music, but they do seem to enjoy heavy usage in pop culture 'entertainment'. " I find it amazing that, in spite of the heavy usage of drum machines by the music industry, you are unwilling or unable to concede any possible, viable use of one. I concede your right not to like them, but you do state that many recording industry experts disagree with your position. And I will agree that in SOME of these uses, I can easily detect the presence of an annoyingly simplistic drum machine -- which does indeed annoy me!
My experience with drum machines is that, in spite of the "mechanical" results I get with what little time I have to spend preparing to use one, it is frequently better for my needs than no percussion at all. And my points in this discussion have been to argue that drum machines have the capability to be used in a manner that is indistinguishable from a live drummer by 95% of the audience (my bold claim*). But you are correct -- this is off topic and this is my final post.
In this discussion, you get the last word. Fire away.
To the original poster: buy or borrow a drum machine and see how it works for you. Try to find one that accepts two foot pedals for optimal real-time control (one for start/stop, the second to switch from one pattern to another). But be aware that without a lot of time and work, the result will be as "tubahed" warns -- mechanical and uninspiring. This is the common result, but is not indicative of what drum machines are capable of -- my points in this discssion. Yet if you adjust the volume to avoid audience focus on this "mechanical" persussion part, the end result may well enhance your performances.
(* over 50% of all statistics are made up on the spot)
Cheers,