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DaFatMack wrote:Any tips on playing loud, but with a good sound? The louder I get, the more edge the sound gets.
Thanks

The more often you do it the more comfortable you will become.

lownloud wrote:More air, less buzz.

I would say just the opposite. More efficiency means more buzz with less pressure. An efficient buzz should also have more meat to it making projection easier.

lownloud wrote:Correction noted. In fact that is what I was trying to say. More air, less pressure.

Umm.. actually, I think what sean was suggesting is that you need more BUZZ and less pressure. An efficient buzz doesn't take all that much air(relatively speaking) to create a lot of sound. Too much is made of using lots of air when playing tuba.. AJ said so himself. Air is merely a means to an end... that being a good solid buzz. The source of sound is buzz not air. As your embouchure becomes more efficient it takes less air to create more result.

Soo.. the real answer to the initial question is if you want to play loud you have to practice playing loud and develop an efficient buzz. Now how you go about practicing is the real meat of the issue and is best addressed by a good teacher.

My opinion FWIW

lownloud wrote:Correction noted. In fact that is what I was trying to say. More air, less pressure.

Perhaps I was not clear. Less air and less pressure are byproducts of efficiency. I am not speaking of less inhaled air, but less air wasted exhaling through lips which are not buzzing efficiently.

I can flow a lot of air with little pressure and produce mediocre quality and decibels. The goal is to focus on the quality of the sound. Not only the quality of the sound through a horn but also the quality of the buzz on the mouthpiece. When the buzz is efficient, the slightest puff of air through the lips will set them in motion buzzing vibrantly. Out of shape lips can be fed lots of air and still end up out of control and not producing a quality product.

An excellent example of efficiency is on Gene Pokorny's Orchestral Excerpts CD. He plays stronger than most people do while at the same time playing longer between breathes at the same time. This is because his decibel to air flow ratio is much better than many others.

Why is all this efficiency talk so important? Well if you make 100dBs at 50 liters/minute of airflow while he is making 100dBs at 25 liters/minute then he will play twice as many notes as you do before needing to take a breath assuming the same lung capacity and the same inhalation volume. Now if he inhales 6 liters to start out and you only inhale 4 liters than he gets another 33% advantage.

Now what happens when he kicks up his flow rate to 50 liters/minute also? He will no longer produce 100dbs, but perhaps 105-110dBs. How is this possible that he can blow the same amount of air and reach a higher volume? Efficiency in the buzz and smooth airflow.

Other factors besides efficiency are quality of sound, pitch, and articulation which can all also have an affect on perceived and real projection.

In the end though, nothing beats just doing it. Add hours/day over a course of a couple of years and you WILL get better at it. I am yet to see ANYONE get worse at something over the long run when they put more time into it EVERY DAY.

lownloud wrote:The initial question was in relation to playing loud.

Assuming that buzzing is merely a physical sensation, a vibration similar to that of a singers vocal chords; then we can assume a big, beautiful sound can be obtained by a large amount of low pressure air.

This is more a 'fuel' question than a 'source' one.

Not necessarily true. I can flow a large amount of low pressure air through my horn and produce no sound. I can also do the same and produce a softer sound.

The air is not the source of the sound. The buzzing of the lips is the source of the sound.

There are physical limits as to how much air you can flow in both directions. There is little you can do to circumvent them practically. What you can do is become more efficient at utilizing your airflow to produce a stronger sound.

It is true that some people starve their buzz of air, but that is a different topic. If someone is trying to play loud, then I highly doubt they are not flowing enough air unless the individual is under considerable tension and building up high pressures.

lownloud wrote:Sean, I never said that air was the source of sound. Please read my last response.

Also, when I talk about low pressure, I am not referring to an oral zephyr. I am talking about minimal physical pressure in general. When people want volume and grunt, usually they think of power breathing, extreme facial expressions, clenched gut, blah blah... I have found this to be a major problem in many students.

Ah, i got ya. I thought you were talking about oral pressures when someone tries to flow too much air through an embouchure and blows it out of control. What you call low pressure I call tension.

wbryan6 wrote: However Sean, I believe your explaination has the most scientific sources I have ever heard from a tuba player (perhaps with the exception of Arnold Jacobs). If you ever do a Master Clinic in Texas please post it and I will do my best to attend.

I appreciate the kind words, but I am highly influenced by my studies at Northwestern University with Rex Martin, a Jacobs disciple, and by numerous recordings and videos and masterclass notes I studied while there. I may have butchered some of Mr. Jacobs teachings. The better teachers of this are direct students of Jacobs such as Rex Martin, David Fedderly, Floyd Cooley, and the like.

cc_tuba_guy wrote:

lownloud wrote:I am talking about minimal physical pressure in general.

Therin lies the defination of "efficient". Case closed!

That is actually tension. Efficency in terms of buzz production using air is defined well in 2b(2) below according to Webster.

ef-fi-cien-cy \i-'fish-en-se^-\ pl -cies
(1633)
1: the quality or degree of being efficient
2a: efficient operation
2b (1): effective operation as measured by a comparison of production
with cost (as in energy, time, and money)
2b (2): the ratio of the useful energy delivered by a dynamic system to
the energy supplied to it
3: EFFICIENCY APARTMENT

Tension can be an inhibitor to efficiency, but lack of tension does not cause efficiency.

I appreciate the kind words, but I am highly influenced by my studies at Northwestern University with Rex Martin, a Jacobs disciple, and by numerous recordings and videos and masterclass notes I studied while there. I may have butchered some of Mr. Jacobs teachings. The better teachers of this are direct students of Jacobs such as Rex Martin, David Fedderly, Floyd Cooley, and the like.

Yes. Rex Martin was the best teacher I have ever had. Very inspiring also. But remember: paralysis by analysis; the sound is most important. Hearing the sound you want, and what Sean first said about just spending a lot of time with louder dbs will give you most of what you are looking for.

Dynamics on a brass instrument are partially (or predominantly) a function of the air speed; to play louder, move the air faster; to play softer, move the air more slowly.

However, as stated above, the air pressure should remain low. Think about blowing the air fast, but not blowing hard.

A good analogy is to think about a stringed instrument. To play louder, the bow moves quickly across the strings, but the player does not want to grind the bow into the strings.

The other point to keep in mind is to have a good concept of what you want to sound like, and strive to match the sound in your head.

A good model for this, to me, is Gene Pokorney. His sound never changes regardless of register or dynamic, it's always great. It's just like changing the volume on a great stereo. There's either more or less sound, but not altered sound.

Just a note to the statement I made above. Sorry, I did not mean to indicate that Gene's sound never changes at all, only that it is aways great, regardless of register, and especially, dynamic.

schlepporello wrote:Would not the bore size have an influence on the amount of volume you would be able to "cleanly" produce?

There's a lot more to it than bore size. The King sousaphone I used in college (smallest valve section bore of all the tubas in the building) could get ridiculously loud without sounding broken, but my old .890" Zeiss Mirafone-look-alike would go bad at a significantly quieter volume.

I'll contest the point that Mr. Pokorny sounds the same at all dynamics in all registers. If the bell were aimed at you during, say, the Fountains Of Rome excerpt on his CD, you'd hear significantly more edge than in other, more mellow selections. It always sounds "great", definitely, but it's a different sound.

Anyway, part of what I think about achieving volume --

You can't do it without practicing it. You can't learn to sprint by walking, you can't learn calculus by reading a multiplication table, and you can't learn how to play loud by playing mezzo all the time. It takes time, fearlessness, intelligence (so your lips don't die), and privacy (even better for fearlessness... lol).

It also requires the player to learn the point at which the sound loses control & center. That way, he/she knows how to get to that fine line between Grand and Ugly, and not cross over.

ahhhhh, tuba players..........so dumb.

ahhhhh, tuba players..........so dumb.

W wrote:ahhhhh, tuba players..........so dumb.

..and your point was what, exactly??

W wrote:ahhhhh, tuba players..........so dumb.

getting back to the original topic. Having, again, seen this on soooo many occasions, I would have to first ask - "which lip is doing the work?"

This has been a great discussion on embouchure efficiency. I have really enjoyed the learning experience. Another way to look at the embouchure function is as energy (the air), turned into work (the buzz). Neither the embouchure nor the air by itself produces the sound. It is a symbiotic relationship between the two that creates the sound (forget the horn - it's just an amplifier). This symbiotic relationship, though, is not equal. I have found that about 60% of the buzz sound on the mouthpiece and 40% of the air sound (the whistle you get through the stem of the mouthpiece when you just blow air through it) gives about the best sound with pretty good efficiency. Too much of either and the sound either gets too "grainyâ€

If I may suggest, also think round inside your mouth, not forced and squeezed. The sound resonates within you, too, and when I want to sound "big" (not edgy), that's what I do.

If you want to learn how to play loud, join a football band. You don't have to think about it, you don't have to take lessons, just blow enough to hear yourself over the drums. The techniques will fall into place. It does help to have a horn that is fat enough so it doesn't fight back.

DaFatMack wrote:Any tips on playing loud, but with a good sound? The louder I get, the more edge the sound gets.
Thanks

Also, try that edge consistantly. No, not to actually make crap out of your sound, but rather to earn the embrosure(I spelled it wrong...I know). Try to use more bottom lip than top lip. Something that helps, is not letting the corners of the lips loosen. That's why it stars to get that edge. If that doesn't work, then it's the horn (I have experienced it...the horn overblows, and sounds bad...key is figuring out which it is...I learned that I can overblow a King BBb Contra at f, and a Yamaha BBb Contra at ff. A Dynasty GG I can't) I also found the (at least my opinion) dreaded sousaphone takes more...

well, speaking of horns and volumes, another thing to consider besides bore size is the thickness of the metal, the quality of the sound may also change depending on this and also the type of metal that is used to make the instrument. just a couple things to keep in mind.

my marching band just got a new line of souzy's that are clearly better instruments than the old line, but it seems that the old souzy's actually play louder. one of the most notable difference is the thickness of the metal. my gronitz pck also has INCREDIBLY thin metal, but I think this allows the metal to resonate more freely (a similar argument to laquer versus raw brass I think).