TubeNet

I'm looking to upgrade/change my main axe. I've been doing a fair amount of research--including the old and new TubeNet search functions, but short of flying to places where I can try them both--and these are the two that don't get knocked off my list.

I've also listened to pros using each of them on recordings.

My interest is in solo and small ensemble playing (straight-ahead jazz and modern classical). The range that interests me most is below the staff, though I can't say I don't value versatility.

They seem to be about the same size and weight, though the Miraphone may be a bit heavier, having a fifth valve. The Yam is much more expensive new, but used, they are much closer.

I'm talking about a newer generation 184; I don't know that the 621 has changed that much.

There's been a whole lot more talk on this BBS about the Miraphone than the Yamaha; I don't know why.

Piston v. rotor--I don't really care, though I have more experience with rotors (and Miraphones).

I'd really like to hear from folks who have played both of them enough to speak to their playing characteristics, intonation, tone, dynamic and pitch ranges, and overall feel--and anything else you think might be helpful.

Thanks. I really value the opinions of this forum (though I won't necessarily follow the results of the poll).

Unfortunately I have nothing to contribute but "Thanks for a ´horn A vs. horn B´-thread that offers potential for other (better) than the usual ´try as many horns as you can, ymmv´-responses".

I agree with bloke, only I've still got MY 184. And to paraphase Treasure of the Sierra Madre, "5th valve? It don't NEED no stinkin' 5th valve!". I can't believe that the re-release would be worser.

Also on the plus side, its plently of horn for a small to medium ensemble.

I currently play a 621CC and I played one 184 4U about 10 years ago. A friend loaned me one to use on a few strolling dixie gigs. The 184 felt light, and easy to carry. I recall the low register was a bit stuffy. The intonation was excellent, like with most Miraphone 184-88's. I picked up the 621CC because it was a great deal. I wasn't looking for a tuba, but I couldn't pass this up. There are other posts of mine regarding this tuba if you do a search. I don't find any intonation issues with the 621, beyond a few normal tendancies. However, the entire horn blows sharp, so you have to pull the main slide 1.5 - 2 in. It has a great low register and the horn is rather free blowing. I also prefer pistons, especially for jazz-type playing. So, I vote for the 621.

I can't vote, as I haven't played the new 184. I used to own the old (16.5" bell) 186, which is as close as I can get. But I did play a 621CC briefly before putting it back into its case and thinking what a cute, little, euphonium-like sound it had compared to a REAL tuba -- of any sort.

(that's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it!)

With apologies to those who like the cute lil' thing,

I can't vote either because I've never played the Yammie. But I will say that my vintage 184 has a wide-open low register, about as far from "stuffy" as you can get.

MA

Thanks to everyone who voted.

Bloke: Thanks for the 'fair and balanced' reporting. (You sure you're not gonna start working on that 184 on your shelf? )

Tubeast: You're welcome--my pleasure.

'bug: Thanks for the Hollywood slant.

Bill: Thanks for sticking up for (what turns out to be) the underdog.

Steve: Thanks for not pulling punches.

MaryAnn: Thanks for the counterpoint.

Allthumbs: Short but inspiring. I, too, have been struggling with an F for years (though I love the tone of it). If you get a chance, PM me on the details of your purchase. Thanks.

Doc: I truly appreciate the time and thought and experience you put into this. You rule.

My one surprise: Nobody said, "Instead of those two, you should be looking at a _____________."

MaryAnn wrote:I can't vote either because I've never played the Yammie. But I will say that my vintage 184 has a wide-open low register, about as far from "stuffy" as you can get.

MA

Mary Ann!!! Based on your Avitar, I hardly recognized you!! You've changed the way you do your hair!! Very cute!!

Cheers,

I've played a few of the small Yamahas and more than a few 184's and 185's. There are good and bad examples of both models and I've played one of the newer 184's which didn't blow my skirt up. So let's go on the presumption that we're talking about good examples of both as used horns and at about the same price.

The Miraphone (older model) has a brighter and more powerful sound that will cut though an ensemble with a tall bell and pretty good predictable intonation with a nice easy low range. The 184 is lighter than the Yamaha.

The 621 has a compact but darker sound and has a short bell and four valves. To my recollection it had very good intonation(your mileage may vary per horn). It's pretty much a one trick pony, although I've heard it played with a big heavy mpc and it sounded bigger than it should.

Having said that, recording is a much different venue than live formats and after listening to Chuck D. play with the CB in various horn eras(Mirafone, different Yamahas, Getzen) I felt his playing with the 621(Shilke design) was the best blend with that group. Heard them live with the Getzen and it sounded great too. So you gotta go with your gut on this one and try both and be able to live with it.

Personally, after going through the Miraphone maze, Getzen, Rudy 3/4, I've pared down to one horn for the little tuba stuff I do anymore, which is an older Piggy. After hearing Center City's 1st CD I really liked the effect and found out that was the horn used, it's turned out to be a great all around lightweight, dark
little powerhouse or quintet horn when needed.

Ike

After I'm dead you can talk to my widow. Meanwhile, under no circumstances would I willingly part with my 184. No other horn I ever tried responds as consistently throughout the usable range. I work harder for low notes, but what I get in return is fully functional, and cleaner and clearer than on any other instrument. Biggest negative down there is, you get lots of edge - more edge than body.

When I pick it up after having played my Alex, initially I get some back pressure - after all, the bore is dropping a full 1/10 inch - but it's easy to get used to again.

Choice of mouthpiece can be critical with a 184. In my experience the Rose, C4, and Wick 3 all work well. But don't presume any of these, or even your current mouthpiece, is necessarily the best choice for you on the horn. You'll want to experiment quite a bit.

I'm currently rehearsing for an all-Italian concert with the local orchestra. The 184 is perfect for this - heavy enough for the overture to "I Vespri Siciliani" and blends like a cimbasso for Puccini arias.

Best app for this horn, though, is solo and quintet work. It's SOO easy to overpower a quintet, but with the 184 you can play at a comfortable level, sound good, and still maintain balance. And the horn is incredibly easy to move around on, very facile. In a community band, brass band, or big orchestra setting, this is not the optimal instrument. I wouldn't recommend putting a trailer hitch on a Turbo Carrera, either.

Thanks again for all the great information.

I just bought a 1972 Mirafone 184 CC 5v (4+1, original) in near mint condition from an eBay seller in Fargo, ND.

It should arrive in a week. I'll let you know how it works out.

The person who came in second in the auction e-mailed me to say that, if I didn't like it, he'd buy it from me!