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Caswell refers to this as real "silver plating".

Cognoscenti?

Modern silver plating is crap, anyway! There are several 'kits' out there that can be used to do spot silvering. They work but don't expect the new surface to be very durable. Even commercial re-plating is a far cry from the stuff that was done a few years back.

the elephant wrote:Yeah, but this stuff might be a decent poor man's (read: many public school band programs) solution for old silver sousaphones with large patches of bare brass.

I've never used the plating kits for anything larger than say... a trumpet receiver or F horn crook. I would think the battery-powered 'pen platers' to be a heck of a lot less trouble that doing all the rubbing... especially on large areas.

The 'pen platers' are the same gizmos that they use to do gold plating on automotive trim. Only very small amounts of precious metals are actually deposited and will be removed with only a couple of polishings.

TubaTinker wrote:Modern silver plating is crap, anyway! There are several 'kits' out there that can be used to do spot silvering. They work but don't expect the new surface to be very durable. Even commercial re-plating is a far cry from the stuff that was done a few years back.

Would a kit that uses electric current do a better job, anyone have a clue about this? The ones I've seen pictures of, run a mild current through the application brush and the object. It seems to me they weren't a whole lot more expensive, and might be as practical for things like tubas, mouthpieces, etc.
[oops, I see you answered this question while I was writing it.]

If it's an alternative to silver spray paint, maybe spray some hardware store lacquer on it while it's still bright?

They say if you wait long enough, there's actually a chance that someone will pay attention to you. In my case, it's only been 7 years (with several mentions in the years in betwen)

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/nov1999 ... 17450.html

"Silversmith" is the cyanide based "commercial" version of "Silverplater". Maybe someone would like to know my experience after 7 years of using it.

The layer of silver put down is about a molecule thick. The stuff works by ion-exchange plating; the copper and zinc in brass go into solution and are replaced by metallic silver. Clearly, the action has to stop when the brass is overlaid by a molecule-thick barrier of metallic silver.

It looks good for awhile, but doesn't last long and rubs off very quickly if you plate a place where your body or clothes rub.

On the other hand, I've used it to touch up a mouthpiece rim that's developed wear down to the brass for a single playing session. I suppose I wouldn't hesitate to use it to fill in a deep scratch that showed brass to make it less noticeable.

There's no substitute for real electroplating--and that mouthpiece got buffed and replated the next day.

Caswell also sells pen-sized "brush plating", which deposits a somewhat thicker layer of silver--and I'd recommend that over the "Silverplater" polish stuff.

If you have access to an electrical supply place, you can probably get a better deal on the basic material behind "Silverplater" by buying a container of "Cool-Amp" powder.

At least this is what I've learned over the course of 7 years.

In the 80's Macy's sold something called "The Silver Solution". It was a similar product that chemically silverplated bare metal. It worked great as a silver polish on an old Conn Eb I had, but the original plating was still almost completely intact. For the heck of it, I stripped a POS student model trumpet and tried plating it with this stuff. It looked OK the first day but wore off very quickly.

the elephant wrote:Chuck, that was very helpful information! Thanks! Should I use a pen-type kit for large areas on a tuba? Buff and degrease first? Give us a procedure to copy to our hard drives!

You da man!!!!

Wade, you know as well as I do, that if you're going to do a large area, it had better be buffed to a near mirror-shine (plating takes on the finish of the base metal). Clean and degrease (acetone should work okay as a degreaser). I'd think you'd go nuts using the little Caswell brush plater on anything much larger than a square inch--but there's a way around that too.

Brush plating is a poor substitute for tank plating, but it's better than the non-electrolytic stuff.

You can make your own brush-plating rig by wrapping a stainless steel anode (or better yet, silver anode) in a couple of layers of cheesecloth. Connect the anode to the positive end of two "D" cells hooked in series and the horn body to the negative end.

Saturate the cheesecloth with the "Silversmith/Silverplater/Cool Amp" solution and wipe across the surface to be plated. Add more solution frequently, as this rig will pull the silver right out of solution pretty quickly. You can build up a pretty good coating that's several times thicker than the simple ion-exchange deposit, but it'll still be thinner than a standard tank job.

the elephant wrote:trichloroethylene

We all have access to it. It's called "brake cleaner" and sells for several bucks for a spray can at any auto parts store. Use in a well-ventilated area (and I mean it!).

Rick "who finds this one of the few remaining effective automotive degreasers" Denney

Rick, sorry, but the auto parts business has been busy eliminating TCE from just about everything. Most commonly, the substance used now is Perc. Here's a typical MSDS:

http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Portals ... 201455.pdf

And the industry is being leaned on very heavily to completely eliminate any chlorinated hydrocarbons in their clearners.

Back when I was working summer jobs in college, I was detailed with the job of waxing (electronic) instrument cases. I stumbled on the shortcut of disssolving a bunch of paste wax in trichlorethane and sloshing it all over everything that needed to get waxed, then buffing the haze off.

I wondered why, at the end of the day, I'd have these throbbing headaches and feel kind of woozy. I was very young and stupid and no doubt slaughtered more than a few brain cells.


A pretty good over-the-counter degreaser is plain old lacquer thinner. Sometimes I miss not being able to get my hands on Freon TF anymore...

Chuck(G) wrote:A pretty good over-the-counter degreaser is plain old lacquer thinner. Sometimes I miss not being able to get my hands on Freon TF anymore...

Yeah, there's nothing like TF for dissolving grease and blowing it away from instrumentation. I used it for cleaning camera shutters and apertures and nothing since works nearly as well.

Rick "who now uses Naptha but finds it doesn't remove grease, just redistributes it" Denney

the elephant wrote:Brake cleaner? Really?

Yup. The Gunk brand is 90% tricloroethane. Some of the brands are now advertized as "non-chlorinated", but the cheaper brands are still the good stuff.

I once was spraying it on a wheel bearing, and a stream of it found a fillet and shot into my eye. I was darn glad I could feel my way to the hose on the back of the house--I flushed for 15 solid minutes before the burning stopped. In response to that idiocy, I now wear a face shield when using that stuff. And if I'm not in the great outdoors, I also wear a NIOSH-approved organic vapor mask, but that is only marginally effective for PERC toxins. Ventilation is key to staying safe with that stuff. I still only use it for particularly challenging degreasing jobs.

Rick "glad to know that it dissolves wax" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

the elephant wrote:Brake cleaner? Really?

Yup. The Gunk brand is 90% tricloroethane. Some of the brands are now advertized as "non-chlorinated", but the cheaper brands are still the good stuff.

Rick, I beg to differ. Here's a list of all Gunk product MSDS information. Both the M720 and the M749 (50 gal. only size) are mostly Tetrachloroehylene (C2Cl4), otherwise known as dry-cleaning fluid or Perc (for Perchlorethene, another name).

On the other hand, Trichloroethylene (C2HCl3) or TCE or Trike is being actively phased out of most consumer products because it's a potent carcinogen. Because of groundwater contamination, OSHA is very critical of its use and most manufacturers just don't want to fool with it.

Chuck(G) wrote:Rick, I beg to differ. Here's a list of all Gunk product MSDS information. Both the M720 and the M749 (50 gal. only size) are mostly Tetrachloroehylene (C2Cl4), otherwise known as dry-cleaning fluid or Perc (for Perchlorethene, another name).

On the other hand, Trichloroethylene (C2HCl3) or TCE or Trike is being actively phased out of most consumer products because it's a potent carcinogen. Because of groundwater contamination, OSHA is very critical of its use and most manufacturers just don't want to fool with it.

Well, I stand corrected. No chemist me--but I had been perusing the MSDS for Gunk brake cleaner recently for another reason and misremembered the chemical name. I never did well in chemistry, especially the organic kind.

In any case, brake cleaner is an effective degreaser that leaves no residue. But it will make you sick if you breathe too much of it, and it will burn like hell if you get it on porous parts of your body.

Rick "wondering how close this is to carbon tetrachloride, another nasty-but-effective degreaser" Denney

I know of a small shop here in Southern Indiana that still operates a vapor degreaser. The 'good' solvents are still stashed around but can cost as much as $300 a gallon.

This is why I DO NOT do any refinishing other that spritzing on a little touch-up out of a spray can.

Changing The World to raw brass.... one horn at a time!

Rick Denney wrote:Rick "wondering how close this is to carbon tetrachloride, another nasty-but-effective degreaser" Denney

From a molecular standpoint, not close at all. CCl4 is a model molecule, with four chlorine atoms forming a cute tetrahedron with a carbon atom at the center. This renders it perfectly nonpolar, which also makes it a very good solvent.

Unfortunately, it'll fry your brain, kidneys and liver if you inhale too much of it.

I still remember the freshman chem lab demostrantion where the instructor ignites a mixture of carbon tet and carbon disulfide and dips his hand into the flaming mixture and waves it around, thus illustrating that not all flames are hot.

ooooooooooh..... aaaaaah....

I have not worked with Tric or Perc in a long time and I have missed them on occasion but having had a bad experience long ago with a large vapor degreaser explosion followed with a nasty fire the explosion created, I manage to subdue my nostalgia for the days that degreasing was performed with ease and relative simplicity. Because of the laws, I am forced to use very old techniques that work well enough but are a real messy pain in the backside. Nuff said about that.

WARNING: more detailed technical crap that you probably will find of little or no value, unless you are a brass repair geek.

Back in the day... When I worked in a silversmith shop and a few plating facilities. We did spot plating over the large immersion tanks using modified artists brushes with copper, silver and gold anodes fastened to them. The anode had a wire soldered to it which connected to the anode bar on the sides of the tanks. We used the brushes (sometimes sponges) to do spot plating or touch-up work. I applied this same process to the spot plating I do in my shop today. I use JNT copper and silver plating solutions which are chloride based and short of stinging like the dickens when you get it in a cut, are relatively safe to work with, unlike cyanide solutions. I also use Vigor copper and nickel plating solutions, they are mild acid based and also safe to work with but really only work well for immersion plating. Nickel does not spot plate worth a damn and attempting to do so is a waste of time. Note: For all you guys who think you can replate a valve in a beaker, forget it. Attempting to plate valves with this stuff is an even bigger waste of time. I use copper and silver chloride for spot repairs on solder joints ONLY.

The following tips might be of use to some, probably old hat to others. The Repair Tech first cleans and solders the break, lightly polishes the area trying to avoid removing as little plate as possible. The area should be cleaned thoroughly, NO soils of any kind should remain, NONE!!! [Cleaning approach: Wet surface with Ferrees cold cleaner, gently scrub with soft lint free cloth, rinse in cold water, gently scrub with lint free soft cloth soaked hot water and Dawn dish washing liquid, cold water rinse, warm water rinse, cold water rinse, blow dry with filtered compressed air, repeat until water sheets off the surface.] The solder area should first be plated with copper because the silver will often not plate properly on the dissimilar metals. It will want to adhere to the silver and the brass but resist the lead/tin at the edges of the solder joint. Copper plate will readily cover lead/tin, brass and silver all at once. The silver will then easily cover the coppered areas. If the instrument is worn at the points of contact, forget spot plate, as spot plating won't last long enough to make the expense of the work worth while. You can however partially dismantle the horn, repair, sand polish and properly immersion plate the worn sub-assembly and reassemble using the touch up to conceal the solder joints. Works great with tubas and Euphoniums, saves time and shipping costs and is a way to avoid the unwanted complete overhaul project but still allowing for a really decent looking repair. Spot plating is not even close to the thickness and durability of conventional immersion plating but it works great at touch ups around those little solder areas provided one makes the effort of being neat and tidy with there soldering and polish work.
I suppose I will have to give the rub-on stuff another try someday. Its probably an okay application for big bare spots on sousaphone bells that were improperly repaired and over-buffed by some "skillet-head" . In my opinion, the repair shop that works on a lot of silver plate should really consider investing in a decent rectifier, anodes, brushes and plating solutions, if they really want to deliver good quality, lasting repair to there silver finishes. A little studying up and practice wont hurt ether. The equipment I have, has been with me for about fifteen years and still works great. As I recall, it was not as expensive as one would think. Less then $500 and worth every copper plated penny. Now that I have that out of my system, I will go back to my bench and try to be more productive.

Daniel C. Oberloh

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Saving the world, one horn at a time...

Wade, why not just send them pigs up to Anderson's and be done with it?