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A continuation of the Toledo Symphony Orchestra tangent;

Does our society value our contributions enough, or are we just whining?

No.

No.

Mike, are you talking about music in general, or "live" music? And what's your definition of "music", while we're at it?

Chuck(G) wrote:Mike, are you talking about music in general, or "live" music? And what's your definition of "music", while we're at it?

Actually, I'm not proposing anything in particular. I was just acting on the suggestion that we move such a discussion from the audition forum to the general forum.

But to the questions, I believe the discussion regarded live music involving the playing of a tuba. And whether it is reasonable for musicians (tubists, in specific) to expect to be paid a living wage while they perfect their art beyond a doctoral equivalent level in our society.

Or if our concept of what such music needs to be widened beyond the traditional symphonic/quintet definition, and if such a definition is, in fact, obsolete.

schlepporello wrote:Then the faculty will whine about us not being able to play for commencement when that time comes around

That's OK, I'm sure they can get the football team to pummel the graduates into the ground for "sport"...

I suppose if you define "our society" as agents, union officials, recording companies, Apple and RIAA lawyers, the answer is "uh huh".

As for the remainder of the population, I'm not qualified to answer as I don't know how much "enough" is. For some, I suppose, "too much is never enough".

No, but think it depends on the culture in different countries.

My band used to regularly played Cunard liners out of Southampton, but a couple years ago when the company came under American ownership, the contract was cancelled - saying they could not afford a band! Afford a band - we only cost a fraction of one passenger fare and it obviously brought passengers a lot of pleasure!

in general, no. however if you want to see appreciation then join the military...after 15+ years of performing there is nothing on the planet that compares to the level of appreciation given by the people of this country to a military band during this time of war....I'm not on any political band wagon however the feeling of apprecation felt by people in performing as a representative of those giving their lives for our country is nearly incomprehensable(?) I get goosebumps every time we play the service songs, anthem whatever patriotic tune you want to name, from the crowd reaction. I understand that it is not because of us but because of what we are representing. But it's cool as sh$t regardless. On the other side as a former band director trying to compete with soccer, etc...uh no. But we do get the smart ones(myself excluded)!

windshieldbug wrote:

But to the questions, I believe the discussion regarded live music involving the playing of a tuba. And whether it is reasonable for musicians (tubists, in specific) to expect to be paid a living wage while they perfect their art beyond a doctoral equivalent level in our society.

Or if our concept of what such music needs to be widened beyond the traditional symphonic/quintet definition, and if such a definition is, in fact, obsolete.

...........................

Who is expected to pay this living wage while this hypothetical tubist perfects his/her art? And why would they agree to do it?

I'd pay to hear a performance that I was interested in and thought to find entertaining, but not one dime out of my pocket for a wanna-be in training "perfecting his art".

Nothing personal towards you, windshieldbug, after all I don't know you and you were really just keeping a discussion going. But there seems to be an entitlement mentality peeking through quite often on this discussion board where some people seem to believe that just because they want to play tuba (or anything else for that matter) that somehow society owes them a living while they indulge themselves, all in the name of "art". Seems specifically centered around those who want to play classical music in some form or another. That's usually followed by a lot of whining about how this orchestra or that group is in financial trouble. Or how it's the fault of society that most people would rather spend their money somewhere else than listening to the same old classical repetoire. (I like the 1812 as much as the next guy, but unless you're going to bring out the field pieces, Morman Tabernacle Choir, real muskets, real chapel bells, etc. I'll keep my money in my pocket and wait for the next July 4th rerun of some no-name orchestra on PBS for my fix. Or crank up my Philadelpia Orchestra recording on vinyl of the 1812 where they did have all that stuff.)

Guess what? The world doesn't owe you a living folks. The best you have is the chance to turn your passion into a living - if you're good enough, dedicated enough, lucky enough, and can beat out the competition for the few available slots. Or if you are original enough and can create your own niche and attract a paying audience on your own. For the run of the mill college level tubist - learn another trade that you'll be using for your day job because you're probably not going to be able to play that tuba for your living.

For the life of me I cannot understand why schools and colleges expend so much effort educating their music students in the very music forms that give their students the least chance of actually earning their livings.

We'll be playing at the Weeping Radish Friday night and all day Saturday in Manteo on the Outer Banks of NC. If you're in the area, come have a beer and brat. Not my day job

No.

Classical Music is not able to support itself without government support. Most audiences don't hear a difference between the Vienna Philharmonic and Andre Rieu.

The "Popular" music of the big bands and even smaller groups has only a devout, but small, audience.

"Pop" music of every kind is facing a crossroads with illegal copying... and the audience doesn't understand "what's wrong with sharing files?" (Blockbuster Music, Virgin Records are examples.)

Live performances of major stars draw crowds who scream, sing and party instead of listen.

No, our society does not value music enough. Whose fault is that? But that's another topic.

"Classical music"? No.

"Music"? Sure -- iPods everywhere, jazz clubs/coffee houses galore. Mega rock/country/pop stars packing stadiums. Opportunities for tubists? Not many here ....


Cheers,

Steve Inman wrote:"Classical music"? No.

"Music"? Sure -- iPods everywhere, jazz clubs/coffee houses galore. Mega rock/country/pop stars packing stadiums. Opportunities for tubists? Not many here ....

Well, I think the answer is "no" all around. The presence of ipods and clubs does not indicate our value for music as most people do not use music as anything but as an "ascessory," just like their purses and shoes, to validate their self-image and lifestyle. Music for most is a kind of "aural wallpaper" used to decorate their lives. "I'm tough, I listen to Metal!" "I'm educated, I listen to classical." I'm sophisticated, I listen to jazz." And that is the limit of the value of music to most...if it doesn't reinforce my image, I don't like it (or at least don't need it).

And ya know what's worse...this applies to most musicians, as well.

Our society values pop culture.

Somewhere along the way, we have let the mass pop culture dominate every aspect of our lives, from our news reporting to the music that we listen to. This really bugs me, not because I'm some sort of elitist snob, but because the bar has been lowered so pitifully low. Those of you out there who know me know that I'm no prude, by any stretch of the imagination, but I am constatntly asking myself "When did THAT become okay to do on TV?" (the radio, the movies... fill in the blank) Catch "Nip/Tuck" some night if you don't know what I'm talking about.

I just think that we, as Amercans, have blindly accepted the crap that the "entertainment" industry continues to spew for so long that the next generation just accepts this as "they way that it is." This is tragic on many levels, not just for classical music, but for the sake of our values system in general. Our society seems to blissfully accept getting dumber and dumber and dumber, largely because we spend so much time as a country engrossed in what the mass media jams down our gullible little throats. Don't even get me started on the people in the mass media that we allow to think for us just because they can shout the loudest... "Dittoheads" exhibit the ultimate form of intellectual laziness.

I think that unless our society becomes more intellectually engaged, the future is just a little bit spooky. Sorry this roamed off topic a bit... Does society value music? Society values what they're told to value by the machine.

Ugh...

harold wrote:Classical music was the popular music of it's day so in 400 years we can expect a BBS where they are whining about the lack of respect being given to rap stars and Britney Spears.

Well S%#^&@$!!! Now you've gone ruined my whole day. What a totally depressing thought.

Well-spoken, Ken.

David Zerkel wrote:I think that unless our society becomes more intellectually engaged, the future is just a little bit spooky.

The future is already spooky and our window for change is closing pretty darn fast. Most people don't really know what we're in for during the next hundred years.

Anybody been listening to Al Gore lately?

Hi all,

I've been authoring a blog for the last couple of months and this morning referenced this topic.

If you care to visit and comment: http://philpro.blogspot.com/

Cheers