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To produce a tone sound appropriate for a Brass Band IMHO you would want to be playing a medium size, rather than small CC for the Eb part.

The Besson Sovereign EEb which is usually used in brass bands in Britain makes quite a big round velvety sound, so that is what you should be aiming by choice of instrument, or mouthpiece.

What I was thinking was a MW2155 I tried sounded remarkably like a Besson EEb, so would provide a good substitute.

Of course, you play your own choice. I am just pointing to what would in my personal opinion be appropriate.

Enjoy your brass band playing!

Bob1062 wrote:Thanks, I hope I didn't sound rude. I have a problem composing my thoughts whilst typing.

Not at all Bob! In fact I wondered if I sounded rather opinionated (which was not intended either).

The idea over here in the land of brass bands is for the basses to provide a velvety foundation to the band. This can be heard in recordings by Grimethorpe, Black Dyke, or one of the other top bands. However, many of the lower section bands don't come anywhere near.

I agree with the notion about the ideal of the basses providing a velvety foundation for brass bands.

However the Eb basses have the function of providing a smooth bridge of sound and balance between the BBb basses and the euphs. In that capacity the Eb part actually can put out too much sound. Especially if played on CC tubas and if the BBb part is too weakly manned.

Medium sized rotary BBb tubas rarely can provide the darkness even of the old pre-Sovereign 17â€

If you're looking for a small 4 valve CC, I'd look at a Mirafone 184-4U. As has been repeated here many times, "the ultimate quintet horn". Older used ones are REALLY sweet!

Check out a Conn 3J if you can find one. it is a small bore C with a large bell. It works well for E flat parts and is also a grreat quintet horn as it was designed in cooperation with Harvey as a copy of the horn he used for quintet work many years ago in NY. It also plays very well in tune.
Phil

Sam Pilafian visited our brass band not long ago and had a term for the way the Eb basses should sound--he either used the term "shimmer" or "sparkle" (I don't recall)--and that's the beef I have with someone who shows up with a King 2341 or Miraphone 186 to play the Eb part--there's no "shimmer" in the sound--it's just another contrabass tuba playing the upper part. One might as well play the euphonium parts on an Eb, or the tenorhorn parts on a baritone.

Remember that the traiditional BBb used for brass band--a Boosey Imperial--isn't a huge horn in the pantheon of BBbs--IIRC, it has a 0.730 bore and a 16" bell and sounds a bit like an overgrown euphonium.

Unlike concert band, where "presence" seems to be the important concept, "texture" seems to be the guiding principle in brass band. So you want your cornets to sound different from trumpets, tenorhorns to sound different from french horns, the baritones to sound different from the euphoniums, and the Eb basses to sound different from the Bb basses.

An Eb or perhaps an F is the right tool for the job, I think. However, in a pinch, I could imagine something like a little Yamaha YBB-103 BBb being used in its place. Heaven knows, any 3-valve BBb will have sufficient range.

For the type of playing you are describing I see no reason not to just get a large Eb rather than a small CC. An Eb like the Willson 3400, PT-22, or M-W 2141 would give you every bit of the sound for a larger ensemble that you seek, yet fit in nicely on the brass band parts. In fact, I think that one of these, or a similar horn would provide more sound than the Yamaha 621, or small Weril CCs.

Lew wrote:For the type of playing you are describing I see no reason not to just get a large Eb rather than a small CC. An Eb like the Willson 3400, PT-22, or M-W 2141 would give you every bit of the sound for a larger ensemble that you seek, yet fit in nicely on the brass band parts. In fact, I think that one of these, or a similar horn would provide more sound than the Yamaha 621, or small Weril CCs.

Sadly, at considerably greater expense.

The brass band I participate in will this Tuesday finally have settled with our bass section equipment. Two HB-2Ps on Eb and two Holton 345s on the BBb. I know the purests will have an opinion about using CC on the Eb and that is okay but for us the justafication of purchasing more expensive instrument is simply not strong enough. I do feel however that these two types of horns have enough contrast and are nimble enough that we are capable of producing our own unique bass section sound. In my opinion, the pppp and fff should be very exciting for player and listener alike.

Daniel C. Oberloh

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote: The brass band I participate in will this Tuesday finally have settled with our bass section equipment. Two HB-2Ps on Eb and two Holton 345s on the BBb. I know the purests will have an opinion about using CC on the Eb and that is okay but for us the justafication of purchasing more expensive instrument is simply not strong enough. I do feel however that these two types of horns have enough contrast and are nimble enough that we are capable of producing our own unique bass section sound. In my opinion, the pppp and fff should be very exciting for player and listener alike.

Dan, perchance are the CC players unable to read Bb treble clef? In my experience, this is why someone with a CC generally ends up on the Eb part. This isn't meant as a slight, but a real-life observation.

Surely, there have to be some Eb tuba players in Seattle!

Chuck(G) wrote:Surely, there have to be some Eb tuba players in Seattle!

There were, but they needed more players on the cornet parts!

A few observations:

1) The pre-19" Sov Besson BBb's have a 17 inch bell. I have one, a 1971 New Standard (see my signature).

2) The BBb's do have a .730 valve set, but because the leadpipe is so short, and the throat is large in comparison to the bell flare, it plays much more open than the bore measurement out of context would suggest. And when using the Wick 1 mouthpiece designed for it, it is a true bass tone, albeit a different philosophical concept of bass tone, as it has to have enough overtones to knit the rest of the band together, and it is definitely not an "overgrown euphonium" in any sense of the word or imagination. It is not a broad orchestral tone to support 100 other instrumentalists. It is not the Conn wooly concert band tone of the 2XJ. It is not a chamber tone. It is not, on the other end of the spectrum, bass trombone nor cimbasso tone. Actually, it can be most likened to the tone of the combination of a pedal 16' diapason and 16' tromba-type reed together on a moderate sized pipe organ, or even a (properly eq'd) bass guitar: depth with overtones, which completely support the upperwork without being overbearing nor enveloping.

3) The other posts are absolutely spot on about the Eb being a bridge between the BBbs and the euphs. Not in a brass band context, but my community band played a euph solo piece last year, and I played the upper notes on the tuba part, written in octaves. I had to go borrow a small bore Eb so that it would blend with the other tubas and not get in the way of the euph solo. Besson Eb bore is .689, but again the leadpipe is short enough that, like a King or a Conn 5XJ, it plays larger. As a matter of fact, an old King Eb upright bell would be a good substitute horn for the Besson.

4) I respectfully disagree with Dan on this one. If you want the sound, it is worth the trouble to get the different instruments. If you want to use small CCs on the Eb parts, do just that: small CCs, not mid or large, or you will destroy balance. And then if you use BATs on the BBb parts, then use cupped mouthpieces instead of deep funnels so that you retain not only some nimbleness to the sound, as Dan mentioned, but also so there will be enough upper partials to blend and be a sonorous band that can speak with one voice, the sine qua non of a brass band, not just as an oversized brass choir.

5) Now, all these comments apply to what is the common target for current brass bands. There are some threads on brass-forum.co.uk, and possibly elsewhere, expressing the opinion that a brass band has become too uniform in tone, and there are those seeking the reintroduction of more color achievable by other instruments, most notably the reintroduction of orchestra brasses: trumpets, trumpets of different pitches, low to high, french horns, and even other tubas. (Sigh) Yes, another example of things coming full circle; there is nothing new but the history a person doesn't know:
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/thecorn ... ory_4.html

John Cradler uses a B&S PT-20 in the section at work. A few weeks ago, when he was the featured soloist, he used his Besson 983 for the whole concert. He played the top divisi above Cameron's Nirschl BAT. The Eb and the CC are totally, completely different animals in that capacity, even within their role as a foundation for the band.

If you've gotta use the horns at hand, then that's what you use. If you're actually going to spend the bread for a horn for an Eb part in brass band, get the eefer.

iiipopes wrote:2) The BBb's do have a .730 valve set, but because the leadpipe is so short, and the throat is large in comparison to the bell flare, it plays much more open than the bore measurement out of context would suggest. And when using the Wick 1 mouthpiece designed for it, it is a true bass tone, albeit a different philosophical concept of bass tone, as it has to have enough overtones to knit the rest of the band together, and it is definitely not an "overgrown euphonium" in any sense of the word or imagination. It is not a broad orchestral tone to support 100 other instrumentalists. It is not the Conn wooly concert band tone of the 2XJ.

...all of what you say is why I describe it as a "big euphonium". It's not by any stretch of the imagination what you'd get with a big Holton or Conn. I characterize the sound as "sweet" and not woofy or diffuse. Maybe we just disagree on what a euphonium should sound like.

Hey, Chuck(G), we probably agree on what a euph should sound like, but the bass has more "grit in the gizzard" than a euph should have.

Chuck(G) wrote:

iiipopes wrote:2) The BBb's do have a .730 valve set, but because the leadpipe is so short, and the throat is large in comparison to the bell flare, it plays much more open than the bore measurement out of context would suggest. And when using the Wick 1 mouthpiece designed for it, it is a true bass tone, albeit a different philosophical concept of bass tone, as it has to have enough overtones to knit the rest of the band together, and it is definitely not an "overgrown euphonium" in any sense of the word or imagination. It is not a broad orchestral tone to support 100 other instrumentalists. It is not the Conn wooly concert band tone of the 2XJ.

...all of what you say is why I describe it as a "big euphonium". It's not by any stretch of the imagination what you'd get with a big Holton or Conn. I characterize the sound as "sweet" and not woofy or diffuse. Maybe we just disagree on what a euphonium should sound like.

I think Chuck as hit it on the head. I too have a '71 Besson New Standard BBb and that is exactly how I would describe the sound. I think the use of this type of horn along with the Eb is one of the things that gives a true British Brass Band that unique blend and bass sound that you just don't hear in other groups.

I sure know if I used my Rudy or King 2341 it would create a much different blend. I know that when I play the Besson it has always sounded to me like a really big Euph.

In other contexts, when broken down with wave analyzer, when "sweet" is used as an adjective to describe sound, it usually means there is a good balance of even overtones to the fundamental. Tube amplifiers, with their even overtone distortion, are usually referred to in this matter, as well as "warm," and as opposed to a lot of solid state amplifiers which merely clip the tone, inducing odd overtones, and are perceived as bright, harsh, or edgy. I definitely agree with that part of it, since the overtones are what knit the band together. I believe you would also agree that "warm" is also a good adjective to describe Besson or brass band bass tone.

But a lot of times, "sweet" can also mean either lacking in fundamental or precise articulation, while still having a tone that can be easily listened to without tiring the ear. That aspect of it I do not agree, at all. When I say "grit in the gizzard," I am meaning good solid articulation with enough sibilant, and possibly non-harmonic tones, which are also present to some degree, which are necessary for good articulation on tuba, and contrast to some schools of thought in which any non-harmonic sibilant or tone is downplayed for a legato, indeed some might even say mellifluous, tone that is sought by euphonium players.

I also agree that unlike tubas in other genres, the Besson and other brass band tubas and euphs, in accordance with their saxhorn origins, were/are constructed along similar methods with similar valve placement, bugles, tapers and flares, so there is at least a mechanical basis for some similarity of tone.

I just still think a superlative tuba and tubist sound different from a superlative euph and euphonist, and not just in pitch.

Chuck(G) wrote:

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote: The brass band I participate in will this Tuesday finally have settled with our bass section equipment. Two HB-2Ps on Eb and two Holton 345s on the BBb. I know the purests will have an opinion about using CC on the Eb and that is okay but for us the justafication of purchasing more expensive instrument is simply not strong enough. I do feel however that these two types of horns have enough contrast and are nimble enough that we are capable of producing our own unique bass section sound. In my opinion, the pppp and fff should be very exciting for player and listener alike.

Dan, perchance are the CC players unable to read Bb treble clef? In my experience, this is why someone with a CC generally ends up on the Eb part. This isn't meant as a slight, but a real-life observation.

Surely, there have to be some Eb tuba players in Seattle!

No, Not many Eb players that are available and can read treble. I started on the cornet and can read treble but it can screw your head up a bit after playing in band or quintet but thems the breaks. Its easy to read the Eb on CC and we like the sound. If folks want to get snooty about it, we ask them if they want pay for the horns and then you here a different tune. This area requires a bit of a commute and the number of available and able players is not as large as one might think. Still, we are very happy with the gang we have put together. In my mind, it is all about having fun while performing the best music you are able with the best folks at hand.


Daniel C. Oberloh

I'm in a small brass band with 2 tuba players. I play the Eb parts on my Besson 983 and the BBb parts are being played by someone with a large B&S CC tuba. The mix works as far as I'm concerned, but he does have trouble reading BBb treble clef on his CC sometimes. I think it would be easier if I were to play the BBb parts on a BBb and he played the Eb parts on his CC, but the sound wouldn't be the same.

If someone already had a CC tuba, like the HB 2Ps that Dan mentioned, I could see that it would be too expensive to get Eb tubas just for this one group. OTOH, if one were looking for a new tuba, a new Yamaha CC 621 will cost as much or more than many new Eb tubas available, making it a different question.

And just in case anyone thinks I am an ideolog or worse, when some people in the local lodge band asked me about what to do about horns when there are no real tenor horns or baritones in this part of the country, not to mention an Eb sop cornet, I suggested, I could, and then actually did rewrite the Eb sop for clarinet, and alto and tenor saxophones could play the tenor and bari horn parts, and if the tuba parts diverged, we could get an Eb bari sax player to play those.

The original question on the forum was people's opinions about using CC tubas for brass band tuba parts. So, to restate my opinion, I think, in terms of preference, the idea develops a strong vacuum in a short straw. But as a practical matter in the Midwest, you're lucky to get anybody or anything to actually cover a part, and if the part can get played, there's one less hole to fill, and therefore, one notch better it sounds, regardless of who or what is playing it, to the better enjoyment and edification of all. I'd rather hear someone blow the part on a kazoo than have a hole in the texture.

Now please excuse me while I go listen to a little ibowtie.com/live365 internet brass band broadcast before I go to bed.

BTW Black Dyke won the 2006 British Open. No surprise. The surprise was the dark horse who came in second. You can read all about it at 4barsrest.com