Why was 3 valves thought sufficient?

[Wyvern]

Most of the old tubas (19th century/early 20th century) in both Eb and BBb seem to be made with only 3 valves which today is generally not thought satisfactory and is confined to a few student models.

Why do you think 3 valves was considered sufficient on a 'bass' in the past, but is not today?

[imperialbari]

Tubas, baritones, euphoniums, and the oval Baritöne and Tenorhörner mostly were considered marching instruments. Often bands had to lead military columns for very long stretches for days.

Weight probably was the overriding consideration.

I know of a highly professional military band, which has a set of concert instruments. When one of these starts to show wears, it is moved to the set of marching instruments.

Some tubists have their 5th and 6th valves removed from the instruments now designated to be marching instruments. Some bass trombonists have had their 2nd valve removed.

The huge Meinl-Weston 197/198 BBb tubas (identical but for a dependent 5th valve in the 4th slide of the 198)
was based on a 3 valve BBb tuba made especially for one of the two SS-lifeguard bands surrounding Hitler.

And yes also I am a bit surprised by the great efforts taken to maximise the sonic output of the huge continental European BBb basses contrasted by their absolute minimum of valves. I am less surprised regarding the old American BBb basses, as they were built from much heavier sheets of brass. An 80-years old Conn sousaphone with 4 valves is criminally heavy.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[windshieldbug]

I think that much music in the US involved town bands, and where the typical 3 valve Eb was sufficient, lighter, and cheaper for the blacksmith/tuba player for recreation. Then, when phonographs became the rage, this was transferred to students, where again, lighter and cheaper were watchwords.

How else would the 3 valve fiberglass sousaphone possibly come about? Because they sound better? NAH!...

[imperialbari]

I think that much music in the US involved town bands, and where the typical 3 valve Eb was sufficient, lighter, and cheaper for the blacksmith/tuba player for recreation. Then, when phonographs became the rage, this was transferred to students, where again, lighter and cheaper were watchwords.

The old American (and also Danish) brass bands had the Eb flugelhorns as their lead voice.

Probably because the many transcriptions of opera and operetta music often was transposed upwards for a suitable key. That way the brightness of the original scores was kept. Today most transcriptions are taken downwards for easier playability on the Bb cornets.

And then the BBb basses were getting common around 30 years later in France, the UK, and the US compared to ccentral Europe (please read: Cerveny).

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[MartyNeilan]

I wonder if false tones were a regular practice way back when.


An equal question might be "Why don't today's tubas have good false tones?"

While there has been a lot of talk about false tones on older tubas, perhaps a much simpler solution was that they just didn't play below the 2nd partial with all three valves down. Considering the much smaller size of the mouthpieces used, that was probably about as low as would sound good anyway.

[Dan Schultz]

Three valves seems to certainly be better than none, one, or two valves! Seriously... don't you think perhaps three valves work OK in the majority of applications? What's the point in Eb tubas struggling to play lower when there are BBb tubas available? What's the point in Eb tubas struggling to play higher when there are Bb tenors available. I've always thought that the REAL reason why instrument makers gave their instruments different voices was to keep down intonation issues from trying to play higher or lower than the horn is really intended to play.

[Lee Stofer]

Three valves were thought to be sufficient, because they were. If you take a good look at just about any march- or concert band tuba parts from before 1970, there are octaves or ossia offered at any point where the written part would exceed the range of a 3-valve Eb tuba. Four- (or more) valve instruments were considered to be expensive, professional-line instruments.

Several years ago, I was asked to fill in on Eb tuba on short notice with a brass band, and I played an antique 3-valve Conn. Even playing modern repertoire, I only had to use false tones for about three notes in the concert, and no one seemed to object.

A BBb tuba in good condition that has good privileged tones has very little if any need for a 4th valve. On the other hand, the CC tuba typically needs to have a 4th and 5th valve to be able to play the range of a good BBb tuba. While in Germany and playing with a traditional German musikapelle, I would frequently use their relatively large, 3-rotor F tuba to play the 1st tuba parts. While playing music written for it, the horn was wonderful, but playing the Vaughn Williams Concerto would have been out of the question on that instrument, for it was written with a completely different instrument in mind. Most manufacturers still make 3-valve versions of most if not all of their model lines, but I think most of the four-or-more-valve instrument purchases are driven by "want", not true "need". If three valves were so bad, trumpet players would be demanding 4-valve instruments.

[windshieldbug]

If three valves were so bad, trumpet players would be demanding 4-valve instruments.

They don't need them, because they're already better than you; just ask one!

[iiipopes]

Three valves are sufficient. Especially if either 1) you have a comp like my Besson, 2) you can pull 1 for 13 and 123, 3) you have good false pedals, like the Conn/Cav souzy I play, and 4) you don't need true pedals.

[Allen]

Let's look at the different classes of brass instruments.

Cylindrical bore instruments have narrow resonances (slots) for the notes. It is important that the instrument itself be in tune for all fingerings to be used. Conical bore instruments have wider resonances. After the instrument is basically in tune, adjusting the slides mostly affects the timbre of the sound, not the pitch (assuming a strong embouchure).

Trumpets (cylindrical bore) usually have three valves. BUT a good trumpeter will adjust the first and third valve slides when playing certain valve combinations in the lower part of the instrument's range. Further, piccolo trumpets, which sometimes have to play on lower partials than soprano trumpets, generally have four valves.

Trombones (cynlindrical bore) certainly have adjustable slides!

French Horns (cylindrical bore) use three valves plus double horns use a changeover valve for the Bb/F switch. Fine pitch adjustment is via hand stopping the bell.

Tubas (conical bore) can frequently get by with three valves, as the pitch is determined more by the player than the instrument. However, for a consistent and good tone, the resonance of the instrument needs to be quite close to the desired note. Also, a tuba is much more frequently played on lower partials than the other brasses. Thus, more valves and/or slide pulling is needed to be both on pitch and have a consistent tone.

We should also keep in mind that tuba solos are (with a few exceptions) a more recent invention. Mostly, tubas have been used to furnish bass notes for the entire ensemble. Since the tuba parts are not exposed, most listeners cannot tell if the tubist is getting on pitch with more valves/pulling/pushing, or is simply lipping notes into tune.

Regarding "false" tones, the worst things one can say about them is that their timbre is not consistent with the other notes based on the second and higher partials, and some instruments don't have them.

Perhaps we could say that the older three-valve standard for tubas was perfectly adequate for older tuba-playing practices.

I can say two things from my personal experience. a) Having more than three valves makes it easier to play on pitch with a consistent tone. b) In the mid and high ranges, only three valves are needed (actually, mostly only 1 & 2).

Cheers,
Allen

[Dean E]

Most of the old tubas (19th century/early 20th century) in both Eb and BBb seem to be made with only 3 valves which today is generally not thought satisfactory and is confined to a few student models.

Why do you think 3 valves was considered sufficient on a 'bass' in the past, but is not today?

This horn was identified on *bay as a one-valve, DePrinz (Antwerp), Bb Sousa.

If three valves are good, wouldn't two valves or one valve be even better, call it minimalist?

I believe that there were two-valve marching brass band instruments manufactured also.

Evidently zero, one, and two-valve horns will also get the job done. Keep the music simple and get by with simple horns.

[tubeast]

For one thing: the amount of triggering trumpet valves needed (at about 1.35 meters open bugle length) is not that much to get the horn in tune, compared to the kind of slide pulling a tuba requires.
My first tuba was a 3-valved 3/4 BBb, a nice instrument that I successfully used for youth band and brass choir in church, the latter being VERY intonation-sensitive. It DID require some lipping, but worked just fine. (no slide pulling possible b/c of non-accessible tubing) and was VERY light.

In our traditional band literature (even with brand new pieces) BBb and F parts ALWAYS are in octave parallels, written so you can make it with a 3-valver.
(F1 for a BBb, C2 for an F. F tuba parts usually IN and ABOVE the staff, but not BELOW.)
It´s modern band literature that will frequently ask for (much) lower notes, even below the open pedals, and that´s where multi-valved horns come in handy.
One of our BBb players has this nice Willson BBb with 5th valve and 2nd valve trigger. He´ll use ALL of those to play centered notes in the (BBb) basement register and is VERY happy he has these. (Playing in the 0- and 1- octave all the time).

[iiipopes]

I would much rather have a longer top 1.

And made usable, as I have done with the top loop of the 1st valve of my Conn/Cav souzy. It rests just where my left hand is anyway, and why the Cyborg, and before that the real Conn company (discounting the MacMillian years) haven't done that as a stock design element, for they've had over a century and a quarter to get it right, I'll never know.

[Sam Gnagey]

My belief is that the 3-valve BBb tuba became popular because it's low range is identical to that of the string bass. During the early years of recording the orchestral bass parts were played on BBb recording basses or even sousaphones, because the string bass was not picked up well by the recording technology of the time. In most photographs from that era of recording sessions the instruments are of that 3-valve ilk. Some orchestral players of that period were using 4 valve CC and BBb instruments perhaps because of better intonation qualities and other factors related to European practices that were passed on to players in America.

[Allen]

... ...

Regarding "false" tones, the worst things one can say about them is that their timbre is not consistent with the other notes based on the second and higher partials, and some instruments don't have them.

But we use pedal notes, which sound much different than the other notes.
... ...

Quite so. Although I might not have been clear in the statement above, I am in favor of using "false" tones, sometimes rather than the regular tones based on the 2nd partial.

It is interesting to look at plots of the resonances of a brass instrument. One can see from the 2nd partial on up all of the open notes we are familiar with. Then, below the 2nd partial there is only one more resonance, and that is at the frequency of the "false" tone. This resonance differs from the others in two ways: It is broader (meaning the note slot is wide), and not all of the other partials line up with harmonics, so there is less reinforcement of this resonance.

What is striking when looking at the resonances plot is that there is NO resonance at what we call the pedal tone, or 1st partial. The only reason we can feel a resonance there is that all of the partials from the 2nd on up line up with harmonics of the pedal tone. If any tone should be called false, I would argue that the pedal tones qualify best.

Cheers,
Allen

[Mark E. Chachich]

I think that Bloke nailed this one when he said needs, price.

Look at an old York catalog and you will find four valve tubas for extra money.

Mark

[windshieldbug]

Why was three valves thought sufficient?

Because they were, then. Its like asking why were violins strung with gut strings, why didn't they make bass trombones, or why did they make guitars without amps? People worked with what they had, and the instrument has evolved.

Some of the earliest tubas were 5 & 6 valved, then they became happy with just 3, because eventually they made any brass instrument diatonic within its main range. Tubas started by being able to play in any well-tempered key, and then brass manufactures began to expand the range of the instrument.

Just be glad we're not still playing keyed instruments!

[tubamirum]

French Horns are conical, and yes, pitch is very controlable with the hand.

[Shockwave]

Three valves have been sufficient for all the tuba music I've come across. Horns from the 19th and early 20th century were designed to be tuned by lip, but as the loudness requirements increased over the years they were designed to resonate more strongly and in the process lost a lot of the pitch flexibility. On a good old instrument, once you are used to it, you just have to think of a pitch and it magically comes out with a nice tone. Old cornets were played by virtuosi without any of the slide adjustment mechanisms found on modern trumpets, and old tubas worked just fine with 3 valves. WIth a bit of practice, false tones sound better than low valved notes, at least in an ensemble. The downside is that once you have trained yourself to play one particular horn, other horns will play out of tune for you. I suspect that back then people played just one instrument and stuck with it.

-Eric