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I've been "assaulted" on a number of occasions due to the fact that I play CC in quintet. For some reason, many of those who play F in quintet look down upon those who play CC.

I've talked to a number of pros who believe that CC provides a more solid foundation than an F tuba - making it easier for the other members to lock onto a pitch.

I understand some rep gets "up there" but usually not above CC range. Also, with some rep you may want more of a trombone sound (perhaps Gabrieli).

The exception, in my mind, is the Yamaha YFB-822 which sounds CC-like. Are there any other Fs out there that compare to CCs?

Anyways, I'm just curious as to what you use in a quintet... and perhaps it would be nice to compile a list of "pro quintet players" and the horn they play on.

Note: by brass quintet I mean 2 trumpets, french horn, tenor trombone and tuba.

I play B-flat for everything. I play as loud or soft as the situation requires. I have 4/4 and 3/4 size. But I think the larger groups benefit more from the 4/4 rather than small groups getting any benefit from the 3/4. The main beneficiary of the 3/4 are my muscles.

I have also heard full-size B-flat played very nicely and appropriately in a quintet at one of the local music stores during the Christmas season. I'm of the opinion that what comes out of horn depends mostly on what goes into it. GIGO.

One of these days I want put the e-flat to use. I'm thinking maybe the high part for TubaChristmas this year.

Let's pick three of the better known brass quintets: the Empire Brass, the American Brass Quintet and the Canadian Brass. I don't see an F tuba in the bunch.

I have used all 4 keys of tubas and am using Eb primarily now, but I'm thinking of a change back to CC to get a bit more weight in the bass voice (preference of the trumpet players). My CC is 4/4.

It seems the biggest question is not the range of the music vs. the easy range of the horn, but whether the quintet should sound like 5 voices blending, or a bigger bass foundation and 4 other voices. CC can (and does) certainly work fine in quintet. I did hear one quintet where the tuba player was using his 6/4 CC and it did sound too heavy to my ears.

Cheers,

Steve Inman wrote:I did hear one quintet where the tuba player was using his 6/4 CC and it did sound too heavy to my ears.

Steve, my guess is that the quintet that you're referring to was not the CSO Brass Quintet. Gene Pokorny sounds so beautifully controlled and balanced with his colleagues playing the CSO York in live quintet performances (no miking or digital tricks!).

Steve Marcus wrote:

Steve Inman wrote:I did hear one quintet where the tuba player was using his 6/4 CC and it did sound too heavy to my ears.

Steve, my guess is that the quintet that you're referring to was not the CSO Brass Quintet. Gene Pokorny sounds so beautifully controlled and balanced with his colleagues playing the CSO York in live quintet performances (no miking or digital tricks!).

For those of us who are not playing with members of the CSO, bringing a big CC is probably too much for the group. For those of us who don't play as well as Gene Pokorny, bringing a BAT to quintet may not be the wisest choice.

If someone is using their BAT because that's their only horn, so be it. If one brings the BAT because the pitch on their F in the bread-and-butter range is really shaky, and the low C sucks, that's a good call. Given the choice, I'll take a small horn any day, and the folks I work with seem to like it that way. Then again, I'm lucky--I've got a YFB621 for an F and a Besson 983 for an Eb, and pitch/center/slotting isn't an issue on either horn. The business end of providing the foundation is covered, despite the more compact sound.

You play what gives you results, and you pick from what you've got. If the group has an opinion one way or the other, you should take it to heart.

Considering the well known quintets, ABQ currently has Rojak playing bass trombone. Sam Pilafian's CC was big, but that was Pilafian. Nobody owns the horn like he does. As for CB, Chuck Dallenbach started out on a YCB-621, the CC version of the F 621, and I read somewhere that he's gone back to it. Could be wrong there, but he did a lot of live concerts for a lot of humongous audiences with a tiny tuba, and the results speak for themselves.

Oh... if another tuba player actually flaks you for using CC in quintet, ignore and delete from memory.

If I owned three horns, the third would be a small CC for BQ. I play a Gronitz F now and it seems to work well.

People who give you flak for a CC over an F obviously don't even own a reasonable CC, don't play enough, or both.

I played with a small CC and thought I liked it, then listened to a few tapes and moved to Eb. The difference isn't huge, but it's audible, particularly in notes below the staff.

Consider that you're playing with three cylindrical bore instruments and a 4th that's nearly so. I really can understand why some quintets eschew the tuba and use a slide chainsaw.

I have used both CC and Eb tubas in quintet. I personally preferred my Eb (Yamaha 321) over a PT4P. I felt that the balance was a little better and the sound blended better. However, when I used my PT4P I noticed that we had much more foundation. I would say that a player should use whatever he had available and should consult with the other members of his quintet to see what their preference is. After all, playing in a quintet is about 5 people with one sound. Their input is probably more valuable than any other's on this board especially mine.



Henry Gertcher

I could argue both sides of this and am still not completely decided.Yes, it's nice to have that superior blend a german f would give.The unanimity of sound is quite pleasing,especially for "art"music.On the other hand,audiences have short attention spans(at least the ones we play for) and having some different tone colors to choose from can be more compelling to a listener.For the average gig,if there is such a thing,classical transcriptions,dixieland,maybe a march,maybe a BQ warhorse thrown in,I'm currently leaning towards a small CC.If you've ever"whiffed" that low BBb in the opening of the Kanon in D on a rotary f,you may be able to relate to my thoughts.Our group does not plan on entering Fischoff anytime soon

My Besson 983 works really well for our group. Good blend with the trombone and horn. Works especially well for Ewald.

I've always let my quintet choose which horn they'd rather listen to. I've brought in a great 70's Piggy CC, Rudy 3/4 CC, B&S F, Gronitz F, Nirschl CC, Yamaha 822 F. They picked the Gronitz F. Our quintet has a slightly ligher concept than most of the quintets here in LA, but we don't hesitate to push when the rep calls for it. So, take that for what it's worth.

I, as a rule, include others in my equipment decisions as much as possible. Usually what I hear behind the horn is notably different from what people hear on the other side of my bell.

-ck

As with most gear questions....

It Depends (part I)

I've played in quintets that are a bunch of symphony guys, all on large equipment for their instrument. In that case - the tuba player (a Brazillian guy on a MW CC) fit right in.

Other groups, with different playing philosophies - smaller, more nimble gear - the bottom part could be more than adequately covered by a big 'ol Wilson Euph.

My current quintet set-up has a Bass Trombone - makes for a beatiful sound with a lot of clarity in some of the big, boomy, churches we play. Good stuff.


It Depends (part II)

My current quintet set-up has a Bass Trombone. As I have played with a number of really fine players...

The only gear that is really important is the nut behind the mouthpiece.

Chuck(G) wrote:Consider that you're playing with three cylindrical bore instruments and a 4th that's nearly so. I really can understand why some quintets eschew the tuba and use a slide chainsaw.

If your objective is complete blend, then that is the way to go. I believe, however, that a brass quintet is a group that is really already too tonally homogenized, and that tonal diversity is a thing to be desired!

I really think that the sound of a French horn, is more conical in nature, and so you have the 2 trumpets & trombone vs. the horn & tuba. Since the tonal density of a tuba is greater than the others, it makes for a fairly even match, I would say. With that combination, there are more possibilities for colour contrasts.

Listening to a whole evening of cylindrical music is not my idea of a good time!

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:Listening to a whole evening of cylindrical music is not my idea of a good time!

I'm not certain the other extreme is much better. (2 cornets, Eb tenorhorn, euphonium tuba). I sold a local hornist a Conn Eb alto that actually played fairly well in tune (!) for a recording project that included the Ewald first quintet. (From what I gather, this is the "authentic" instrumentation). I have the recording and I can't say that I like it any better than those done with contemporary instrumentation. I believe that British Brass Band quintets are still organized this way.

I suppose it all boils down to what you think a quintet should be. My wife plays in a woodwind quintet and 5 more dissimilar wind instruments probably couldn't be found. There, the literature takes the form of lots of solo passages for the various instruments--and a lot of technical pyrotechnics. Transcriptions of WW quintets to brass rarely work--the animals are just too different.

I look at a brass quintet as a small choir--intended to emphasize blend more than differences.

What would the brass version of a WW quintet be? Piccolo trumpet, flugel, mellophone, tenor sax and tuba?

I too use my Besson 983 Eb. I can get a strong full low range while it facilitates the upper range, which for me is only up to the F above middle C. I can't handle that range as easily on any of my other horns, but then I'm just an amateur.

Play the one that sounds right....

I've used both F and CC in the same quintet concert....

I used my MW 2040/5 Eb earlier this year for quintet and it worked just fine. I initially tried with shallow cup mouthpiece, but decided the harmonics from a deep cup mouthpiece worked much better.

So my conclusion is that an Eb, or small CC would work best. My experience with the shallow cup would indicate an F would probably be too bright, considering that the tuba is providing the bass to the quintet.

Besides bass trombone, no.