TubeNet

Was at www.tubaeuph.com today and looked at their list of downloadable tuba CDs. Saw that TWO Ray Draper CDs are available for download purchase from iTunes. I thought that was great - I'll pay for the music, so I'm not downloading it for free, and I don't have to go anywhere to hunt for the CDs in the crowded shops. SO - I created an iTunes account, and tried to purchase the Ray Draper stuff. Guess what? Since I'm a Canadian , I can only download stuff from the Canadian iTunes Store! Ray Draper's stuff is only on the US iTunes Store! What the hell? I guess Prestige hasn't given the rights to Canadian iTunes or something...what a lunchbag letdown!
**I'll gladly reimburse any US resident who wants to "gift" both albums to me through iTunes.

We used to have a guy in college who's tone was so bad that we called him "Draper" behind his back.

The fact that that man got on a Coltrane album is B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

dtemp wrote:We used to have a guy in college who's tone was so bad that we called him "Draper" behind his back.

The fact that that man got on a Coltrane album is B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

Wow,
Everyone is entitled to an opinion........On the other hand, perhaps innovation and swing make up for the lack of tone that you perceive, perhaps Mr. Draper never perceived any lack in his own sound and was actually acheiving what he sought out to do. Artistry comes in many forms.
I've heard of a guy who had this new sound on trumpet, maybe you dig him? or maybe you sit around and call trumpet players with this tone "Miles".
I guess if Coltrane cared how many orchestral excerpts a player knew, or how loud they could play, or how much they spent on a horn, or if they had an F tuba, or the mouthpiece of the week, or if it were laquered/silver/whatever then lot's of us could have gotten that gig.
While Mr. Draper's sound is not what we expect to come out of a studied tuba player, his ideas and harmonic sense are what put him where he was. I for one will take innovation over robotics every day of the week.
Peace.
ASG

I guess that's what they call digital rights management, a growing and entangled legal field. Apple has had to set up separate iTunes stores for every country just to comply with the laws of each entity. There is no universal rule. I wonder, there must be a way to work around it. If you drove across the border, could you access? Like at a wi-fi cafe?

dtemp wrote:The fact that that man got on a Coltrane album is B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

Not only was he on this album, he was the leader on those dates. It was Ray's band. That's deserving of respect all by itself.

Tooooba playin' was a whole different thing back then (pre-Bobo days). What passed for good tone then, even among 'tuba virtuosi' is considered substandard now. Ray was breaking ground for us in the jazz field, and we owe his memory a note of respect.

dtemp: how many jazz albums are you on?

Listen,

Ray Draper is a great pioneer in the jazz tuba world. That doesn't mean that we have to enjoy his tone, style, improvisational skills, or anything else. It's kinda like that Chappelle's Show skit, "The First Black Man to use a White Toilet," Ray's truly a pioneer, and not much beyond that.

Respectfully,

Andy Smith

Ummmm....
Look I usually avoid this thread about Ray Draper, Arnold and Uncle Beer do you own any of his albums? I just own one (the one with Coltrane) which I believe is his 1st one.

I know that he also has a few other:
Red Beans and Rice (might be out of print)
Tuba Sounds

Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Ray-Draper-Quinte ... 45-7444138

On this 1st album I can't really say I that can appreciate the swing, I'm just not feeling it, and in the 1st tune (Clifford's Kappa) you can hear the piano player try to come back in after a number of choruses and each time Ray comes back in, the time sufferes as does the entire feel and he even leaves real big holes in the solo when you think that he is done and to be honest it's hard to tell what he is doing harmonically because I frankly can't make out what notes he is playing. When Coltrane himself comes back in the time fixes itself and he brightens up the whole tune. Not to say that if you can't sounds like Coltrane you shouldn't release an album, but I still agree with Andy that he is a pioneer, but in no way any sort of genuis. (but he was Coltranes heroine dealer)
Maybe his later albums showed a marked improvement in style and swing, but I just don't see it and hear it from the 1st album, and I would be more than willing to overlook tone (ala Miles) in return for music.
Very respectfully,
Bill

Tubadork wrote:Look I usually avoid this thread about Ray Draper, Arnold and Uncle Beer do you own any of his albums? I just own one (the one with Coltrane) which I believe is his 1st one.

Oopsy Bill. Ray had two albums as leader with Trane.

And yes, I have several more of his sides.

Scooby Tuba wrote: Was RD an innovator? Well, no,

Really? Who else was playing ANY kind of improvisatory jazz on the tuba in the '50s (and puh-leeez don't say Don Butterfield), much less recording with Trane as a sideman?

UncleBeer wrote:

Scooby Tuba wrote: Was RD an innovator? Well, no,

Really? Who else was playing ANY kind of improvisatory jazz on the tuba in the '50s (and puh-leeez don't say Don Butterfield), much less recording with Trane as a sideman?

How about Bill Barber? Was Harvey Phillips doing any sort of jazz improv stuff at this time? I'm just asking, because I don't know.

Interesting discussion, let's keep it going!!

UncleBeer wrote:

Tubadork wrote:Look I usually avoid this thread about Ray Draper, Arnold and Uncle Beer do you own any of his albums? I just own one (the one with Coltrane) which I believe is his 1st one.

Oopsy Bill. Ray had two albums as leader with Trane.

And yes, I have several more of his sides.

cool,
what is the other album, is it out of print? I've never seen it before. I have heard red beans and rice and I can hinestly say that I don not own any of his sides. But I have seen them listed:

http://www.answers.com/topic/ray-draper

Really? Who else was playing ANY kind of improvisatory jazz on the tuba in the '50s

Bill Barber (was he doing improv?)

When did Harvey Phillips start playing jazz?

The one commercially available cd of Trane and Draper, I think you have to admit is not a shining example of great jazz.
It's good to see that we are having a conversation about this without resorting to character assination for someone speaking out about a particluar topic and we are actually getting some information. Thank you,
Bill

The reason his tone sounded so bad may have been recording techniques, also. I've learned from working with a mic and making some recordings that the tuba is an exceptionally hard instrument to record. This in turn makes me think even more highly of the few tuba CD's that have a truly exceptional tone,(i.e., all three of Gene Pokorny's albums, plus a couple of others.) One way to make a bad tone is to stick the mic in the direct line of the bell opening, which also happens to go against common sense. That may well have been the reason for the second-rate tone on the Draper albums.
Just my two cents,
Aaron Hynds

Scooby Tuba wrote:There was no innovation in his harmonic or melodic material. {snip} On the other hand, DB's total contribution is, overall, of a completely different scale.

Ewwww. And on that curious note, our discourse ends.

All anyone can do here is state a subjective opinion and this is mine. Bill Barber's work with Miles, Birth of the Cool, Sketches of Spain, etc. began in 1949. Mr Barber's sound, time, sense of style, and swing were surperb on all of those recordings. He was obviously a good tuba player in addition to being a good jazz player. Miles' Birth of the Cool was "the" cutting edge expermental jazz of the day. Harvey Phillips contributions with the Sauter-Finnegan Band and then much later with the Matteson-Phillips Tuba Jazz Consort are ledgendary. Rich Matteson did an album on tuba (actually a helicon) with the Dukes of Dixieland in the late 50's (trust me I know the difference between dixie & bop) where he played continuous walking lines that would rival the intensity and swing of virtually any bass player of that era and solos on tuba that demonstrated technique and swing like a sax player. Rich was a monsterous tuba player. There are certainly many other jazz tubists who emerged after these players during the late 60's who have had a tremendous influence on the art of jazz tuba playing. Some of them may have had less than a desireable sound from an orchestral perspective, but they made great music and played with expression and style and showed great understanding of the art of jazz.

As a serious student of jazz for the better part of the last 40 years I have heard nothing from Ray Draper that can approach any of the above mentioned players. I think there is a difference between poor recording quality and a tight, pinched sound. There is a difference between nuance and poor intonation. We can all play the "it's artistic expression card" and justify anything, but a rose is a rose and I haven't found anything that smelled like a rose in Mr. Draper's playing yet.

DP wrote:

ArnoldGottlieb wrote:

dtemp wrote:We used to have a guy in college who's tone was so bad that we called him "Draper" behind his back. The fact that that man got on a Coltrane album is B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

Wow, Everyone is entitled to an opinion........On the other hand, perhaps innovation and swing make up for the lack of tone that you perceive, perhaps Mr. Draper never perceived any lack in his own sound and was actually acheiving what he sought out to do. Artistry comes in many forms. I've heard of a guy who had this new sound on trumpet, maybe you dig him? or maybe you sit around and call trumpet players with this tone "Miles". I guess if Coltrane cared how many orchestral excerpts a player knew, or how loud they could play, or how much they spent on a horn, or if they had an F tuba, or the mouthpiece of the week, or if it were laquered/silver/whatever then lot's of us could have gotten that gig. While Mr. Draper's sound is not what we expect to come out of a studied tuba player, his ideas and harmonic sense are what put him where he was. I for one will take innovation over robotics every day of the week. Peace. ASG

Wow, Arnold, (my opinion follows) THAT was quite a way to first, express an opinion, and then choose to sign off by saying "Peace."

Well dtemp,
Thanks.
I have no need to start a fight with anyone, I'm looking for an open dialouge where people have opinions that they might freely speak. I'm also quite a fan of peace. Really. And, I'd love to hear what you like, or don't like about any tuba player.
Peace.
ASG

Richard Murrow wrote:All anyone can do here is state a subjective opinion and this is mine. Bill Barber's work with Miles, Birth of the Cool, Sketches of Spain, etc. began in 1949. Mr Barber's sound, time, sense of style, and swing were surperb on all of those recordings. He was obviously a good tuba player in addition to being a good jazz player. Miles' Birth of the Cool was "the" cutting edge expermental jazz of the day. Harvey Phillips contributions with the Sauter-Finnegan Band and then much later with the Matteson-Phillips Tuba Jazz Consort are ledgendary. Rich Matteson did an album on tuba (actually a helicon) with the Dukes of Dixieland in the late 50's (trust me I know the difference between dixie & bop) where he played continuous walking lines that would rival the intensity and swing of virtually any bass player of that era and solos on tuba that demonstrated technique and swing like a sax player. Rich was a monsterous tuba player. There are certainly many other jazz tubists who emerged after these players during the late 60's who have had a tremendous influence on the art of jazz tuba playing. Some of them may have had less than a desireable sound from an orchestral perspective, but they made great music and played with expression and style and showed great understanding of the art of jazz.

As a serious student of jazz for the better part of the last 40 years I have heard nothing from Ray Draper that can approach any of the above mentioned players. I think there is a difference between poor recording quality and a tight, pinched sound. There is a difference between nuance and poor intonation. We can all play the "it's artistic expression card" and justify anything, but a rose is a rose and I haven't found anything that smelled like a rose in Mr. Draper's playing yet.

Cool, there's lot's of albums I've bought that I don't like either. Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after, I have no doubt that my listening is filled with holes and I'd be happy to try to plug them little by little. I can't think of a record where the tuba gets any billing at all from that era that's not Ray Draper, I don't own any Rich Matteson, so if you put up some links I'll buy them tonite when I get home from work.
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG

Scooby Tuba wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:

Scooby Tuba wrote: Was RD an innovator? Well, no,

Really? Who else was playing ANY kind of improvisatory jazz on the tuba in the '50s (and puh-leeez don't say Don Butterfield), much less recording with Trane as a sideman?

There was no innovation in his harmonic or melodic material. That he was playing (some would debate this point) tuba really was, in the grand scheme of things, insignificant. He blazed no path. There have been jazz tuba players since, but I'd be surprised to hear in a "non-tuba-centric" conversation that any one of them would list RD as a major influence. But, I assume you do, UncleBeer!

On the other hand, DB's total contribution is, overall, of a completely different scale.

Let me say, I couldn't disagree more........

It's funny here, when I don't know someone's real name or where they live, and by funny I guess I mean unfortunate.
I do happen to know a few guys who played a few gigs with Mr. Draper near the end of his career, all of them speak with reverence and are not tuba players. Stories abound in New York City, and we can choose what we want to believe, I've heard a lot about Ray's musicianship, about writing incredible arrangments at someone's kitchen table, going on the nod and not making the gig to hear them played. Hey, at least I saw the table

My 2 favorite players are Bob Stewart and Jon Sass, make it 3 and I add Howard Johnson. I know these guys have a sound that goes way past what Ray Draper was doing, and yet, I wonder if they would exist as we know them without Ray's influence. Anybody have an opinion on that?
Peace. ASG

Richard Murrow wrote:
All anyone can do here is state a subjective opinion and this is mine. Bill Barber's work with Miles, Birth of the Cool, Sketches of Spain, etc. began in 1949. Mr Barber's sound, time, sense of style, and swing were surperb on all of those recordings. He was obviously a good tuba player in addition to being a good jazz player. Miles' Birth of the Cool was "the" cutting edge expermental jazz of the day. Harvey Phillips contributions with the Sauter-Finnegan Band and then much later with the Matteson-Phillips Tuba Jazz Consort are ledgendary. Rich Matteson did an album on tuba (actually a helicon) with the Dukes of Dixieland in the late 50's (trust me I know the difference between dixie & bop) where he played continuous walking lines that would rival the intensity and swing of virtually any bass player of that era and solos on tuba that demonstrated technique and swing like a sax player. Rich was a monsterous tuba player. There are certainly many other jazz tubists who emerged after these players during the late 60's who have had a tremendous influence on the art of jazz tuba playing. Some of them may have had less than a desireable sound from an orchestral perspective, but they made great music and played with expression and style and showed great understanding of the art of jazz.

As a serious student of jazz for the better part of the last 40 years I have heard nothing from Ray Draper that can approach any of the above mentioned players. I think there is a difference between poor recording quality and a tight, pinched sound. There is a difference between nuance and poor intonation. We can all play the "it's artistic expression card" and justify anything, but a rose is a rose and I haven't found anything that smelled like a rose in Mr. Draper's playing yet.

ArnoldGottlieb Wrote:
Cool, there's lot's of albums I've bought that I don't like either. Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after, I have no doubt that my listening is filled with holes and I'd be happy to try to plug them little by little. I can't think of a record where the tuba gets any billing at all from that era that's not Ray Draper, I don't own any Rich Matteson, so if you put up some links I'll buy them tonite when I get home from work.
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG

Arnold,

Unfortunately, the Rich Matteson recording is out of print. I think it is clear that if you listen to the artists I mentioned above, Bill Barber and Harvey Phillips, that they are definitely functioning in a "nonbassist role". I believe you have already expressed a dislike for Don Butterfield's recording with Clark Terry, so I asume that you don't consider it very creative and that is obviously your opinion and if you believe that, that's fine. I do think though that it was the first such recording featuring tuba in a non-traditional (non-dixie) jazz role and as such deserves credit for that.

ArnoldGottlieb Wrote:
"Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after,"

As for after: Well, how about Jim Self's recordings? Definitely nonbassist role. Also for $15 + $3 shipping, I'll send you a copy of my cd: Trumpet, Tuba, Piano, Bass, & Drums. A search through TapMusic.com jazz tuba selections will also offer many excellent tuba with small group recordings. If you haven't gone there I suggest you check it out.

Richard Murrow
__

Richard Murrow wrote: Arnold,

Unfortunately, the Rich Matteson recording is out of print. I think it is clear that if you listen to the artists I mentioned above, Bill Barber and Harvey Phillips, that they are definitely functioning in a "nonbassist role". I believe you have already expressed a dislike for Don Butterfield's recording with Clark Terry, so I asume that you don't consider it very creative and that is obviously your opinion and if you believe that, that's fine. I do think though that it was the first such recording featuring tuba in a non-traditional (non-dixie) jazz role and as such deserves credit for that.

ArnoldGottlieb Wrote:
"Is there another tuba artist playing a nonbassist role in a small group setting from that era or before or after,"

As for after: Well, how about Jim Self's recordings? Definitely nonbassist role. Also for $15 + $3 shipping, I'll send you a copy of my cd: Trumpet, Tuba, Piano, Bass, & Drums. A search through TapMusic.com jazz tuba selections will also offer many excellent tuba with small group recordings. If you haven't gone there I suggest you check it out.

Richard Murrow
__

Hey Richard,
Thanks, I have most of the Jim self stuff, and I'll check your stuff out. If you look back I've expressed no distaste for Don Butterfield and was unaware that a recording existed. Would you tell me the name please?
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG

Arnold,

Don Butterfield's recording was Top & Bottom Brass with Clark Terry and rhythm section. It was re-released a few years ago on cd, but I don't know if it is still available. E-mail me privately for more info.