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I recently acquired a silver 186CC 5v that was too good of a price to pass up. The problem is that the valves sound like hail falling on a tin roof. I took it to my local music store to see if they can do something like make it stop or change the linkage. It has the older derlin DVS linkage. What can I do to make this thing playable (besides playing castanet parts)? I'll try to post picts of it this weekend when I have time.

ai698 wrote:I took it to my local music store to see if they can do something like make it stop or change the linkage.

Well, what'd they say?

bort wrote:

ai698 wrote:I took it to my local music store to see if they can do something like make it stop or change the linkage.

Well, what'd they say?

Glad you asked! I forgot to finish my thought . They didn't do anything to it, either busy with summer school repairs or just didn't want to tackle it. They did try to find linkage to replace them, but they were looking for exact replacements that Miraphone doesn't make anymore. So after about a month I picked it up and now it sits unplayable. It does have a good Miraphone sound, though. I would like to be able to play it someday.

I believe that you can order new DVS parts directly from the factory--search the Tubenet archives. But your noise may not be the DVS setup but normal bearing wear. Or, possibly, some idiot disassembled the valves and didn't seat the rear bearing plates all the way.

What happens is that some bearing play develops and the rotor rattles when it's either accelerated from a stop or when it stops when hitting the bumper.

Unscrew the rear caps and make sure that the bearing plates have been seated "home'--that is, the bearing plate surface should be flush with the edge of the casing, not sitting above it. Using a wooden dowel and a small hammer (like the handle of a screwdriver), you can re-seat the bearing plate home--small taps on the dowel resting on the bearing plate, moving the dowel around and around the edge of the bearing plate until it's seated flush.

If the bearing plates are seated and you still have rattling, you should schedule some time with the local repair tech so he can "swedge" the rotor bearings.

A stopgap measure is to take up any end play with the setscrews in the center of the rear valve caps (many Miraphones have thse). Turn the setscrew bit by bit clockwise until the rotor becomes sluggish, then back off a smidge. This isn't a permanent repair, but it will quiet things down until you can get the horn to a repair tech.

Hi Steve,
You could PM me if you want to sell it.
Would the serial number happen to be in the 10,XXX's??
Dave Hayami

are you sure it's the linkage... the rotors might be dried up... eavier rotary oil on the stems would fix that... if it is the problem.

Check the end play in your rotors, make sure the stop plates aren't loose, and see that the screws holding the stop arms are tight before you waste a lot of time on the linkage. If your linkage is just plain worn out, DuBro links, a few pieces of 4-40 threaded rod, and a couple of pieces of 5/32" ID brass tubing will solve the problems with noisy linkage.

Further to TubaTinker's post, Rick Denney has a page on his website giving step by step instructions on how to do this.

http://www.rickdenney.com/valve_linkages.htm

There's photographs of each step in the process.

Hope that helps

Russ Kennedy

I use one of these (a 4U in the 11XXX range) as my primary axe -- and when neglected the valves can get noisy when dry... it is something with oil/moisture seeping into the metal (or not)

Oil it up and then play it for a few hours and see if the rotors dont quiet down. Sometimes it can take a few days for it to completely quiet down.

...I look at it as the horn "complaining" at me about being lonely!

Another thing to check is that the bumpers have not hardened; mine clanks something awful when it's time to replace the bumpers. The 186's also seem to like a variety of bumpers ---that is, certain softness or hardness of the bumper material depending on the direction of the stroke.

TubaTinker wrote:Check the end play in your rotors, make sure the stop plates aren't loose, and see that the screws holding the stop arms are tight before you waste a lot of time on the linkage. If your linkage is just plain worn out, DuBro links, a few pieces of 4-40 threaded rod, and a couple of pieces of 5/32" ID brass tubing will solve the problems with noisy linkage.

It's a DVS linked tuba. If he wants to do all that, he's going to have to order new parts from Miraphone, as the stop arms and everything on that are different....

Let me know if you need any help.

Or just trash the DVS linkage altogether, as a retired colleague of mine did, and spend the money once to do a uniball or miniball linkage that has universal sized readily adjustable and replacable parts.

The serial # is in the 13XXX range. I'm going to mess with it this weekend and try adjusting it again. I'll try this before I try a homemade linkage job.

Thanks for the serial # range. When I ordered my 186 silver back in 1976,
Mirafone sent 3 copies all in silver. Tommy Johnson and Jim Self picked the
the best of the three, and that is the horn that I still have. I always wonder what happened to the other 2 silver horns(186 5V CC bright silver)
Dave Hayami

Damn! Personal tailoring at its finest!

ASTuba wrote:It's a DVS linked tuba. If he wants to do all that, he's going to have to order new parts from Miraphone, as the stop arms and everything on that are different....

Yes. But it's doable. I soldered brass tubes on my DVS stop arms when I converted my Miraphone, and mounted the ball for the Du-Bro ball joint level with the top of the stop arm. There were clearance issues with the joints and the stop arm that required a bit of carving of the plastic, and also putting a bend in the connecting rods once assembled. I did mine 15 years ago, and it's still fine. But my stop arms are worn and don't all fit tightly on the rotor shafts like they used to. I have them shimmed up, which is working fine, but I'll probably replace the stop arms at some point with a version that provides an easier mounting for a ball-end.

Rick "who thinks the Miraphone white plastic was dreadful" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:Yes. But it's doable. I soldered brass tubes on my DVS stop arms when I converted my Miraphone, and mounted the ball for the Du-Bro ball joint level with the top of the stop arm.

When I converted a string-linkage Alexander (with the stop pins on the "wrong" side of the arm), I took 1/4" round brass rod stock, cut appropriately-sized pieces, then silver ("hard") soldered each piece to its stoparm. Finally, I drilled and tapped each rod to accept a 4-40 screw for the ball mounting.

Connecting links were made from 1/8" brass rod, threaded for 4-40 on each end.

Works and looks fine.

Lest anyone accost me for converting a string linkage, I should add that the old linkage was not factory-original, but rather something that someone in the past had cooked up. It didn't work all that well.

A question for those of you who have done this conversion to their tubas. After removing (unscrewing) the shaft from the end of the key arm, did you plug the hole and redrill and tap the keyarm end for a new ball? Or did you just figure that there wouldn't be much slop with an oversize hole?

I did the former because I don't trust approximate fits and it also let me get away without a nut on the keyarm.

Chuck(G) wrote:When I converted a string-linkage Alexander (with the stop pins on the "wrong" side of the arm), I took 1/4" round brass rod stock, cut appropriately-sized pieces, then silver ("hard") soldered each piece to its stoparm. Finally, I drilled and tapped each rod to accept a 4-40 screw for the ball mounting.

Connecting links were made from 1/8" brass rod, threaded for 4-40 on each end.

That works well, but it's easier if you have a lathe. Lots of things are possible if you own a lathe, but a ball-link conversion is pretty easy for the vast majority of folks who don't. I just used brass tubing that slipped over 4-40 rod, and threaded (with a tap) the stop arm for 4-40, screwed in a length of threaded rod, slipped the tubing over it, soldered it in place, installed the ball link, and put a nut on the top. It won't look as good as what you did, but it's strong and it looks good enough from more than a few inches away. And it didn't need special tools or skills.

Lest anyone accost me for converting a string linkage, I should add that the old linkage was not factory-original, but rather something that someone in the past had cooked up. It didn't work all that well.

I was interested to note that a brand new Alexander F horn bought by the horn player in my quintet has ball-linkages rather than string.

A question for those of you who have done this conversion to their tubas. After removing (unscrewing) the shaft from the end of the key arm, did you plug the hole and redrill and tap the keyarm end for a new ball? Or did you just figure that there wouldn't be much slop with an oversize hole?

In none of the tubas I've converted was the hole oversized. They were all threaded a bit differently. I was either able to reshape the threads with the threaded rod or retap them for 4-40. But I didn't trust these Grade B fits, and always have used a backing nut. I have converted several Miraphones, a Musica, a B&S, a Sanders/Cerveny, and a Rudy Meinl, and never found holes large enough to allow a 4-40 rod to wiggle much. But if the nut is properly tightened, it won't wiggle even if oversized, as long as the nut seats properly (or a washer is used).

Rick "who would probably do something more artistic if a lathe was available" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:That works well, but it's easier if you have a lathe.

I used a lathe for the threading, and a drill press for the boring, but someone with a good eye and patience could probably do nearly as well without.

You may have to waste some material with a few tries, but it's not nearly as frustrating as setting a soundpost in a viola...

Here's the tuba in question-