Cutting a Conn 2xJ

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:40 am

There are many examples cutting old BBb BATs to CC (York, Martin, Holton). However due to the rareness of the these instruments, obtaining one to cut is very difficult.

The Conn 2xJ series can be easily found and at cheap prices, prices far cheaper than the horns mentioned above. Why doesnâ€™t someone looking for a bargain CC BAT cut one of these?

Certainly there are intonation issues with these horns, but there are some good ones out there, and this could be corrected during the modification process. It would appear to be a lesser cost alternative. Has anyone tried?

Any thoughts?

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:18 am

I think Bloke did an experiment a couple of years ago where he took out a whole loop of tubing and replaced it with a branch made from the tuning slide crook of a trombone. From what I remember the pitch was so off he decided to abandon it and sell the parts off as is to be reassembled later.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:29 am

With the cost of labor to do it right, there is no "cheap" CC conversion anymore. Just buy a good used CC pistion horn of a sizable bore and be done with it so you don't ruin what is left of an old tuba that someone might want to or need to play.

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:46 am

I cut down a 20j quite a few years ago. It turned out just OK. It was a custom commission project for a guy in Brazil. I replaced the recording bell with an upright 2341 bell that I cut and modified to fit the 20j collar. That helped with reducing what I had to take off the branches of the horn to get it to CC. I used a 5-valve rotary cluster for the valve section. It was a titanic struggle to get the job done.
I second the opinion that even with common and inexpensive instruments to use for parts, cutting an instrument down is always a big job that takes time which translates into cost that may not be justified by the end results. However, if anyone is interested in doing a 20j, I'd be happy to offer advice and suggestions. I even have a couple of 2341 upright bells to offer for the project.

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:46 am

A Meinl Weston, Gronitz, Hirshbrunner, or VMI are all $10k plus new and used around $8-10k.

The purchase of a 20J with an upright bell might run you $1k. Even with parts and labor, it would seem you could get it done for far cheaper than those above.

I guess the real question is what is it about the Holtons, Martins, and Yorks that makes them better candidates than the Conns for conversion?

Frank Ortega · Post by **Frank Ortega** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:21 am

I guess the real question is what is it about the Holtons, Martins, and Yorks that makes them better candidates than the Conns for conversion?

Superior intonation and response would my best guess.

Frank Ortega

markaustinhowle · Post by **markaustinhowle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:53 am

I have done one. I used a Nirschl valve section, a rotor from a Miraphone for the 5th valve and a bell from a Miraphone Kaiser. It is a great tuba with one of the best 6/4 sounds have ever heard. Pretty nimble too.

MAH

As you can see, there is much cosmetic work still to be done. Not a priority for me at this point. It has not held my son back in any of the orchestral, solo or band performances in any way.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:20 pm

Scooby Tuba wrote:Talk about your "roughage"!!!

(I think this is more considered to be "brassage")

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:29 pm

harold wrote: I've taken dumps that have more Conn in them than this horn does.

You read my mind, Harold. But I don't know if I'dve put it that bluntly.

SplatterTone · Post by **SplatterTone** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:46 pm

I thought it can't be a Conn if it doesn't have a naked lady on it. Not too long ago, during an especially grid-locked day in Congress, just to get something passed, it was approved that you could glue on a hula girl in lieu of the naked lady.

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:49 pm

Nice Job, Mark! The thing about a 20J is that it's all conical, except for a few inches of tuning slide. A good candidate for conversion has some small tubing that can be removed, like a long tuning slide in the leadpipe. To shorten a 20J you have to take some out of the bell end because the small tubing already has too much taper. A better candidate would be a 26J, which is a predecessor of the 20J. It's only a little smaller, (but still a big tuba) and it has a tuning slide in the leadpipe. Those instruments have gone for as little as $600 on Ebay, with nice silver plating.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:58 am

Liberty Mo wrote:The purchase of a 20J with an upright bell might run you $1k. Even with parts and labor, it would seem you could get it done for far cheaper than those above.

Actually, the York Bb carcasses that have been used to make converted CC tubas didn't cost any more than a 2xJ.

But if you do a decent conversion, you'll spend $2000 for the conversion, $1000 for the overhaul of the parts you use, $2000 for a new piston valve block, $1000 for the fifth valve, and $2000 for the finish work. It adds up in a hurry. The price I've seen on nice conversions is similar to the prices you mention.

One thing to consider is whether the 2xJ is that great a tuba to begin with. An instrument that is only so-so in its original form might be improved in the conversion, but probably not. It's a huge risk. My own experience with a 20J is that you have to have an outstanding example to make a really good Bb tuba. The one I had was in reasonably good condition, but the F at the bottom of the staff required 1-3 to be in tune and the isntrument was incapable of playing below about mf. I kept getting The Hand, even more than usual, when I brought it to rehearsal for a summer outdoor concert.

One doesn't make a conversion to make a cheap CC grand orchestral tuba. One does the conversion to bring a particularly special instrument back into marketable use. Even the low-cost conversions that Sam makes depend on the availability of really nice outer branches worthy of the time investment.

On the other hand, if you just want to try you hand with the hacksaw, they are relatively cheap starting points that probably won't be missed if it turns out badly. It's a fun project, if for no other reason to realize just how difficult it is to do it right.

Rick "who spent less learning that lesson" Denney

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:35 pm

SplatterTone wrote:it was approved that you could glue on a hula girl in lieu of the naked lady

Heck, I'd get one just for that!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:44 pm

Cutting a 2xJ? I don't get it. There are so many good to great CC tubas already for sale, both new and used, why do a conversion project that winds up costing at least as much as a fine CC tuba -- even if you acquire the 2xJ carcass for free.

If you want the exact sound and playing qualities of the 2xJ, why not (re)learn BBb fingerings. After all, the really serious CC players usually learned CC fingerings second, and already have learned Eb or F fingerings in addition, so what's the big deal about dusting off the fingerings one originally learned as a youngster.

Now, a conversion I'd like to see on the 2xJ tuba series would be to make them lighter and easier to schlep. It has a great sound for wind band work, and I'd get one in a minute if I didn't have to do the schlepping of a horn that's only a little smaller and lighter than the Statue of Liberty.

Cheers,
Allen

markaustinhowle · Post by **markaustinhowle** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:18 pm

I think I paid around $2,700 for all the parts for my project. It was a lot of fun doing too. I initially cut about an inch off each piece of tubing and put it together with duct tape while telescoping each piece inside the next. This allowed me to experiment with different dimensions until it was "in tune" and in C. If I were to ever do another conversion project I would use the same method.

A side benefit was that my two sons who play tuba now were involved in the project and they learned along with me.

MAH