Verdi

[kontrabass]

What horn (big vs. small) would you use for Rigoletto? How bout Nabucco (overture)?

[Jay Bertolet]

The short answer is as small a horn as you can find for either work.

Verdi very much expected his works to be performed with 4 trombone voices, the 4th voice being done on a cimbasso. The chorale in the beginning of the Nabucco Overture is a perfect example of Verdi's expectation in writing 4 part bass brass voice chorales. He expected the 4th voice to really blend with the other 3 so using any tuba is, in my opinion, a compromise. Verdi himself has been quoted as preferring anything but a tuba when a cimbasso wasn't available.

Anyone who saw the masterclass I did at the 2002 ITEC will remember that the chorale in Nabucco was one of the selections I used to demonstrate how much better the works of Verdi sounded on cimbasso. The tubas I used in that demonstration were a Willson Eb and a very small Cerveny Eb. Despite the lush characteristic of the music, and how used to the sound we've become here in the US from years of not having a cimbasso performing these works, the results were very one-sided. The cimbasso wins hands down.

The part in Rigoletto really gets around but it is still best done on a cimbasso. There are some really soloistic passages in that opera and the cimbasso cuts right through. It is obvious to me that Verdi knew what he was doing when he scored his operas for a cimbasso. Not only do they sound better with the cimbasso, they are much easier to play. If you can, I encourage you to try one yourself and see.

My opinion for what it's worth...

[JB]

The short answer is as small a horn as you can find for either work.

Verdi very much expected his works to be performed with 4 trombone voices, the 4th voice being done on a cimbasso. The chorale in the beginning of the Nabucco Overture is a perfect example of Verdi's expectation in writing 4 part bass brass voice chorales. He expected the 4th voice to really blend with the other 3 so using any tuba is, in my opinion, a compromise. Verdi himself has been quoted as preferring anything but a tuba when a cimbasso wasn't available.

Anyone who saw the masterclass I did at the 2002 ITEC will remember that the chorale in Nabucco was one of the selections I used to demonstrate how much better the works of Verdi sounded on cimbasso. The tubas I used in that demonstration were a Willson Eb and a very small Cerveny Eb. Despite the lush characteristic of the music, and how used to the sound we've become here in the US from years of not having a cimbasso performing these works, the results were very one-sided. The cimbasso wins hands down.

The part in Rigoletto really gets around but it is still best done on a cimbasso. There are some really soloistic passages in that opera and the cimbasso cuts right through. It is obvious to me that Verdi knew what he was doing when he scored his operas for a cimbasso. Not only do they sound better with the cimbasso, they are much easier to play. If you can, I encourage you to try one yourself and see.

My opinion for what it's worth...

Mr. Bertolet's post is excellent advice, and I completely concur.

If cimbasso is not part of your "arsenal," then suggest using an F. (In my case, I used a B&S Perantucci 5-valve F. Certainly a better sound for this than my large Yamaha F.)

[Steve Marcus]

Jay and JB,

Assuming that the player is facile with the slide as opposed to the valves on a cimbasso, would a contrabass trombone work as well or better in Verdi? It would seem that contrabass trombones are more readily available and less unwieldy than cimbassos (cimbassi?).

[Jay Bertolet]

Steve,

Are contrabass trombones more readily available than cimbassi? I'm really not aware that they are but then I have no real experience with them. Further, I was under the impression that contrabass trombones were usually made in the key of BBb, like a BBb tuba. This might be too low of an instrument to really comfortably play some of the Verdi operas on. I know that Rigoletto part very well (it's one of my favorites) and it really moves around. I've had many folks come up to me after performances of that opera here and congratulate me for such a virtuoso performance. While I'm not the most technically oriented player, I would still think that the slide capacity required to play parts like Rigoletto would be extreme. It might not be worth the extra effort just to be able to use a slide unless, like you suggest, the contrabass trombone is much more readily available. Interesting idea though.

My opinion for what it's worth...

[UDELBR]

I was under the impression that contrabass trombones were usually made in the key of BBb

Interesting. I'd think there's more pitched in F, but that's just a hunch. I've sat next to 6 contras in my life; 5 were in F, and 1 was in BBb. Is the BBb a standard item from any company besides Mirafone?

[JB]

Assuming that the player is facile with the slide as opposed to the valves on a cimbasso, would a contrabass trombone work as well or better in Verdi? It would seem that contrabass trombones are more readily available and less unwieldy than cimbassos (cimbassi?).

While the tessitura of a contrabass trombone might be well-suited, I have a feeling that the technical demands might be better suited to a valve instrument rather than with a slide. (That being said with all due respect to the slide-players of the world.) Simply the nature of Verdi’s writing in the parts. Thus, it appears to come down to valves being preferable over slides.

My humble $.02 FWIW.

[UDELBR]

is the tessatura of the F cimbasso the same as an F tuba or 8va?

Approximately the same range as F tuba. But... cylindrical instruments blow way different than conical. If you've never played on (frinstance) bass trombone semi-seriously, you're in for a big surprise when you first toot on a cimbasso!

[JB]

is the tessatura of the F cimbasso the same as an F tuba or 8va?

Approximately the same range as F tuba. But... cylindrical instruments blow way different than conical. If you've never played on (frinstance) bass trombone semi-seriously, you're in for a big surprise when you first toot on a cimbasso!

Absolutely correct. I second UncleBeer's observation/warning. They are very different beasts.

For interest on the instruments, some may want to visit...
"The Cimbasso Page" @
http://www.wcwband.co.uk/cimbasso.htm

and see Jim Self's cimbassos (cimbassi) @
http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/hardware.htm

[JB]

I may be mistaken, (it is getting a little late here) but I recall that Chuck D. did some recording with the Cdn Brass using a cimbasso rather than tuba.

[MartyNeilan]

[quote="cc_tuba_guy"] I LOVE that raspy, tongue-hangin-out-of-the-bell sound, such as the bass bone part in Sym Fantastique

Not to start an online war, but I think most serious doublers and bass trombone players would take great exception to playing the instrument with such an approach, especially in a classical setting.

[Jay Bertolet]

It's an interesting point you make Joe because I'm pretty sure that Verdi had no opportunity at all to hear a player of the caliber of a Bobo. Neither the player nor that level of equipment existed at the time.

That said, I think Verdi might have still chosen a cimbasso for two important reasons.

1) He invented the cimbasso. This instrument was specifically designed by Verdi to be the bass brass voice. For Verdi, this was the sound that completed his brass and trombone chorales.

2) Remember the large competitive war that existed between Verdi and Wagner. Both were striving to be the premiere opera composers of their time. Wagner revolutionized the opera orchestra with his inclusion of Saxhorns. The nearly total conical approach to Wagner's brass section is the exact opposite of Verdi's more cylindrical brass section. I've read scholarly research that suggests that Verdi may have chosen this approach, in part, to differentiate himself from Wagner. Such a decision certainly fits the profile of competing ideologies.

I agree that using an instrument like a 184 is probably a good choice if the cimbasso is unavailable. At least it is a good compromise. We disagree in the reception the cimbasso usually gets. Most every conductor I've used mine with has commented favorably. Of course, what do they know???

Forceful? Me? Hard to imagine

My opinion for what it's worth...

[MartyNeilan]

No problem. It is just a pet peeve of mine, people who pick up a bass trombone and blat as obnoxiously as they can, thinking that is how it is always suppossed to be played.