TubeNet

I remember hearing/reading about a New York Philharmonic recording of Bruckner 8 made in th '80s under Mehta. That had Warren Deck playing the regular contrabass tuba part, and Don Harry playing the 4th Wagner Tuben part on contrabass tuba. Was that ever released, or is it just a bootleg? Anyway, i'd love to hear it regardless. Any info is appreciated.

*** mis-read original post, so have removed

ZNC Dandy wrote:I remember hearing/reading about a New York Philharmonic recording of Bruckner 8 made in th '80s under Mehta. That had Warren Deck playing the regular contrabass tuba part, and Don Harry playing the 4th Wagner Tuben part on contrabass tuba. Was that ever released, or is it just a bootleg? Anyway, i'd love to hear it regardless. Any info is appreciated.

I saw this series of concerts, but it was Toby Hanks playing the last Wagner tuba part on his B&S F. As far as I know, there's no released recording, and that's a small blessing, as Avery Fisher sounded unbelievably harsh in those days, and didn't compliment the incredible brass section.

Why is this done?

I know, that the Wagner Tuben are hard to play well. But then any contrabass tuba (and even any standard size bass tuba) will be much larger than the low Wagner Tuba in F, which does not exceed a Kaiserbariton in the dimensions of bore and bell size.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

imperialbari wrote:Why is this done?

It could be interpretation of WT notation, which is very inconsistent and confusing.

If you read the F tuba parts in this piece at the same pitch as an F horn, they lie above the Bb parts a lot of the time. (Or otherwise the Bb parts are &%%* high)
This could suggest the F tuben should be read an octave lower. If you do this however, there is confusion about the frequent switching between bass and treble clef.

If you read the bass clef as a continuation down from treble clef notation, the 2nd F tuba descends regularly to the fundamental, not a note most horn players are comfortable with, even full-time professional 4th horn players. (and there are pp cold entries on that note )
If you take the bass clef parts as the normal french horn "old notation" i.e. written an octave too low, the clef changes make little sense.

I think Mehta made a decision in interpreting these notation enigmas, making the 2nd F part too much of a challege for a simple horn player.

The Deck & Harry combination was done during a South American tour and then radio broadcast back in the states. All the recordings that I've heard are bootlegs (mine being an overplayed cassette )

Good luck finding a decent copy.

Steve Lamb

I saw the Korean Broadcasting Service orchestra in Seoul perform Bruckner 7 with two euphoniums and 2 F tubas instead of Wagner tuben. Talk about lost in translation...

Some interesting replies!

The euph/tuba style solution is not new to the Koreans. A Belgian company (Mahillon?) made a set for a Manchester(?) orchestra which basically were narrow piston euphoniums in Bb and F. They were played by two cornet players and two euphers from one of the local military bands.

I had no problems with the pedal of the F side of my Conn 28D, when I was a 2nd and 4th horn, but then I was not a pro on horn, so I did not have to strain my embouchure for hours on end and could play through a Giardinelli J4. Which is quite big for a horn context.

corbasse actually gives me a hint towards solving one of the big enigmas of my life as a music listener.

18 years ago I was very ill and could not sleep. To avoid madness I listened to whatever music of interest coming down via TV or radio.

There was a culture channel sending during night hours back then, which I do not find anymore. From that channel I took down all the re-transmissions of B8 performed by the phenomenal Israeli orchestra to which Zubin Mehta was attached. I do not remember the exact name of the orchestra, but I think ZM still is attached to them.

They had 9 hornplayers. The best ones were the bumper on 1st and the 5th. The bumper guy since has died from a not so pleasant encounter with cancer, but he was GOOD. He had a Hebrew name, which has disappeared from my memory. The 5th guy was a genius on Bb Wagner Tuba. I never knew his name.

The enigma was the contrabass trombone in F sitting next to the 8th horn/4th WT. That trombone player sat one riser down and one row in front of the other trombones.

I never understood that until now, because that contrabass trombonist did not play very much. But he must have been a bumper for the 4th WT on the critical notes.

If having to choose between a CC tuba and a contrabass trombone as a substitute or support for the 4th WT I any day would go with the tromb.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

I remember hearing Bruckner 8th with NY Phil back in the early 90's with Klaus Tennstedt. Warren was, of course, covering the contrabass tuba part and I believe it was Morris Kainuma playing the 4th Wagner Tuba part (Morris..was that you?). This still ranks as one of the most inspiring concerts I have ever attended both because the playing was so absolutely stunning and Maestro Tennstedt's deeply moving and perfectly paced interpretation.