My lucky day! Tuba for X-mas! Need advice...

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:22 pm

Hey guys!

Listen, I've been scanning this forum and elsewhere for information to help me make a decision about which tuba to get. I'm almost there, but I'm appealing to the wisdom of those present to give me one last boost.

I have an upper limit of $4000 for a new or gently used tuba.
My #1 choice is a MW 25. My local dealer says he'll match whatever deal I find on the internet for a new tuba. He's also willing to let me try out whatever he orders before I buy.

**********Problem ***********************
(and oh what a problem to have!):

I found a new MW 25 for $3999 (no case, standard finish). The lacquered version is $5599 (arrgg!).

Now, I've found a Cerveny CBB 681 with lacquer, no case for $2999. This would give me wiggle room to buy a gig bag and a hard case.

**********Question***********************
Better to go with the MW with no lacquer and no case (because I love that instrument) or better to go with the Cerveny with lacquer and case?

Note: I've never played or cared for a non-lacquered tuba.

I'm open to receiving any ridicule or flaming for my level of newbyness here. I'm also open to any unsolicited advice you would have me consider in purchasing a tuba in general. (please feel free to point me to previous posts that I might have missed in my searching that would help me).

Alex F · Post by **Alex F** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:50 pm

Thanks for the plug Bob, but the VMI 2103 I had has already been sold. I do believe this model is worth checking out as it's a great horn for the $$.

I've noticed that BBC has a few MW 25s for sale right now but their published price is higher than $4K. Nonetheless, I'd recommend giving Dave F. a call as he has several to choose from.

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:57 pm

Full sized BBb. I've heard good things about VMI. Open to it for sure. Gotta go. I'll check back with you folks later. Trying to make a decision by Monday.

Chen · Post by **Chen** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:57 pm

1. MW tubas tend to have higher resale value than Cerveny tubas (just my observation).

2. Buy the tuba that you want, the case can come later.

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:59 pm

1. MW tubas tend to have higher resale value than Cerveny tubas (just my observation).

2. Buy the tuba that you want, the case can come later.

Good points. And I can always start with a gig bag. Is it easy to get a tuba lacquered later? Some here seem to really like the sound and responsiveness of their non-lacquered horns. Perhaps I won't want to have it lacquered later. I haven't been able to find a really comprehensive post/article about maintaining a non-lacquered finish. Can anyone help me out a little on this one? Maybe point me in the right direction?

Thanks for your help, tubists. I'm excited out of my gourd here! This will be the first tuba I've ever owned. I can barely sleep just thinking about.[/quote]

Chen · Post by **Chen** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:17 pm

For me the benefits of having lacquer outweighs the benefits raw brass provides. I used to own a raw brass Mirafone F and although it looked kinda cool, after owning it for a while I just start missing having lacquer on the tuba. I didn't like the smell on my hands after I play.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:34 am

The lacquer on my tuba has been removed the really old-fashioned way: 35 years of abuse and no touch up after repairs before I bought it. Of course, I think it sounds great. Looks like hell, so many dings you would think it has a hammer peen finish, but so what?

New lacquers are thinner. Schilke did experiments on trumpets and came to the conclusion that silver plate makes no audible difference, and that the older spray lacquers were to his ears and microphones were, in essence, like putting a blanket over your horn to blow it.

But on an instrument the size of a tuba, does it make a difference? Probably. Any added mass damps vibration and changes characteristic. But with newer lacquers, especially those electro-sprayed or epoxy based as the lightest of coatings, does it make an audible difference? Probably not. Add to that the inherent differences from horn to horn in the soldering of braces, mechanical tolerances in manufacturing, etc., and I believe on new horns those make more difference than the lacquer.

It still boils down to the conventional wisdom: So long as it's well made and from a reputable manufacturer and seller, then manufacturer, model, age and condition, so long as it's mechanically sound, don't matter so much as the player and what sounds good to you and what you sound good on. Try with an objective friend before you buy, and look it over inside and out to make sure you don't have to "buy it twice" from subsequent repairs.

Since the world is going to lead-free, sooner or later we'll all start debating whether or not lead-tin solder for putting a horn together has any better or worse sound than silver-tin solder.

And as metallurgy continues to improve, one day someone will get an even more accurate spectrograph on the trace impurities of the brass in older tubas deemed superior, and then start doping their brass alloys as a marketing tool for "better" low brass vs. "pure" yellow, gold, or rose/red brass. Indeed, Gibson has already done this on their Mastertone brass banjo rings, and found out it was cheap army surplus cartridge brass, or possibly even recycled rifle cartridge casings themselves, as it was cheap at the time, and they had to keep up with demand when in the 1920's there was somewhat of a banjo craze, not much different than electric guitar sales taking off in the wake of the Beatles.

And then fifty years beyond that, there will be debates on ceramic valves that are teflon or boron impregnated, eliminating the need for valve oil, and the debates on those vs. older oiled valves, whether stainless steel, nickel plate, solid nickel or monel, etc.

And then....
(Cue in the background the Zager and Evans tune, "In the Year 2525" , and fade to black)

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:36 am

one little quibble about the original post.the term "standard finish" in my mind IS lacquer.I don't think any manufacturer is currently making no finish their"standard" finish.I would ask for clarification from the dealer who gave you that price.My bet is the higher price is for silver finish,the lower for lacquer.I could ,of course,be wrong(but not likely

)

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:37 am

Mike,

See, I'm not sure myself. Here's the ad:

http://www.music123.com/Meinl-Weston-25 ... 8508.music

If you click the Model field in the form, you'll find Lacquer or Standard (Used-B Stock)? You're right, I'm might need some clarification. I'm not totally convinced that it means raw brass.

I'm not against having a raw brass tuba. They seem pretty cool. But I don't think I want one as my only tuba.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:18 pm

Upon closer scrutiny of this thread, i believe both the horns are lacquer,but the lower priced horn is USED not new.That would account for the price difference.Roger Lewis will give you the real deal on the used horn if you ask him...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:51 pm

Just a note. Having looked online at the tubas available at music123 and/or wwbw, they often have used/new horns of differing levels of use. To that end, used B-stock is a used horn that if memory serves is in pretty good condition. I can't find the online link to the descriptions, but once upon a time I read them, and imho that would make this horn not raw brass, just used with a little bit of love showing.

Rob

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:09 pm

I put in an email to music123 about it. You guys are probably right. In the case that you are. I probably need to adjust my expectations here and either shoot for a used or a less expensive horn.

I've played both the miraphone 186 and the MW 25. I like the MW best but liked the 186 quite a bit. For those of you who have played these instruments, could any of you recommend an economic alternative? I don't really care about resale value so much as sound, feel, and durability.

Thanks for all of your help so far, I'll be talking with a few sales reps tomorrow and want to get my story straight.

Anyone know about the new Miraphone 186 selling on ebay right now? (closes in 5 hours)

http://cgi.ebay.com/MIRAPHONE-186-4-Val ... dZViewItem

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:46 pm

Get an OLD Miraphone...if you can find one. I got one that was made in 1971, and it plays like heaven...I love it. I actually like it even better than a PT-6, and that's saying something...I've tried a newer 186, and comparing it to the 1971 Mira., there's no comparason. As long as you can live with a CC...

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:22 pm

They call your wind horn mariah? Well paint my wagon red!

I saw a an old 186 for sale here:

http://www.brassandwoodwind.ca/Miraphon ... 11XXX.html

looks great.

Not sure if I really want to go to a CC at this point.

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:19 am

Just purchased a new Miraphone 186 ($3650) so ending this thread! Thanks for you all of your help on this guys!

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:43 am

I bought it on ebay. Powerseller with a high rating. The high bid was $4200 or so, but the guy didn't pass the SCO security check. As second highest bidder, I got the deal at $3650. I was very surprised that she let it go for that price. There were only 4 bids total (I think it was only up for a few days.). I'll be anxious as hell until it arrives at my doorstep.

YES! It's a brand new horn, package only opened to verify product!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:12 pm

David,

I looked at ebay, and you can too on the bids listing of the tuba you "purchased". You are not the second highest bidder, looks like you are about the 3rd highest bidder. The only interesting thing about you, is that you have a newbie, (0) rating.

PLEASE....PLEASE...Don't tell us that they sent you a "second chance bidder" email. There are enough scammers on ebay that cull the listings and try to get you to "buy" something that they aren't even selling.

The first thing I would do is make sure that you are dealing with the seller. Go back online on ebay, and contact them either through the listing, or through their profile. I wouldn't be surprised that they are selling the horn to the highest bidder, and someone is trying to have you for 3600.

I once bid on a Kailison horn that went for over 3000. My highest bid was 1000. A couple of days later the supposed seller contacted me saying that the deal fell through and they were offering me a chance to but at my bid price of 1000.

The original listing said the tuba was in Washington, D.C., and the seller wouldn't ship it, pick it up only. When the offer came to me and I replied, they said that they were currently on the west coast, but they would pay for the shipping.

I'm not saying that this is a definite scam, but seeing as how you've only been a member on ebay since Dec. 1st, if someone was looking to scam a person, you might fit.

Again, not offense intended, but please be sure that you are actually dealing with ebay and the true seller. There are lots of "second chance" scams that people have tried to run on ebay. You can actually look for information about this on ebay.

If on the other hand this is a legitimate purchase, congradulations.

Rob

Uncle Buck · Post by **Uncle Buck** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:24 pm

Let me echo what already has been said - Don't ever, ever, ever send any money through a 2nd chance bidder offer on Ebay. It is the leading Ebay scam right now, and your chances of getting a tuba, or your money back, are pretty slim.

davidwburns · Post by **davidwburns** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:04 pm

You just saved my @$$, friends. I feel like such a duffus. No fear, I haven't sent any money to anyone or given any confidential info. If it seems too good to be true...

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

Uncle Buck · Post by **Uncle Buck** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:02 pm

davidwburns wrote:I feel like such a duffus.

No need to feel that way. Those scams wouldn't still be around if they weren't successful. Ebay can be a tricky place for newcomers. (I guess you could substitute just about anything for "Ebay" in that sentence.) The really sad thing is how many people lose major money on things like that.

The good news is, you still have enough budget to get a pretty good tuba. I don't have any personal experience for either of these suggestions, but I'd suggest checking the archives for posts related to:
1. Cerveny's tendency to dent easily; and
2. All the wonderful things that have been said about the King 2341.

Also, be sure to check out this thread.
viewtopic.php?t=14962&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Or, you could keep saving up for this . . .
http://www.dillonmusic.com/Arthur_pryor ... ombone.htm

Take your time, figure out what you want, keep lurking all the sites, so when what you are looking for comes available, you'll be able to act quickly.

TubeNet

My lucky day! Tuba for X-mas! Need advice...

My lucky day! Tuba for X-mas! Need advice...

CHECK WHAT YOU ARE BUYING!!!

Echo for Rob

Lucky