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I have only once had to play below the pedal A; a pedal G that showed up in a modern piece. For that occasion I practiced the pedal range a bit and found that I ran out of tubing at F (even on a compensating four valve E flat tuba).

It is, however, quite nice to have these pedal notes accessible, for last chords of chorales etc. And of course, they also guarantee you to win the low note pissing contest - unless your oppenent is an organist.

That said, the last 2-3 notes above the pedal (E flat, in my case) and the lowest notes of the range (below pedal B flat, in my case) will never be as open and easy as they would be on a proper contrabass tuba. The same applies to the last notes above the pedal of contrabass tubas, the problematic range is only shifted further down the scale. For example, playing a pedal C on an E flat tuba is a lot easier than playing the same C on a B flat tuba (because there it is not a pedal tone so you must add tubing to almost double the horn's length).

On my MW 2040/5 I can get down to G two octaves below the bass clef stave at which point I seem to just stall in that the vibrations seem to get so slow they stop.

However, I have never had a part to play requiring such low range - I don't remember ever going lower than the Bb above.

So, I would say that the low range on a 4/5 valve Eb is more than adequate, so you should have no concerns there - while regarding low tone, I have found that the 2040/5 is much more open (less stuffy) in the low register than a compensating Eb, like the Besson 981 I had until recently.

For high range, with the right (read small) mouthpiece I have managed up to Bb an octave above the stave on the 2040/5. The only high register problem I have had is a tendance for the E above the stave to split using 1+2, so I now use just 2 instead.

With a non-compensated 4 valve EEb, you'll be able to get down to a low F with some slide pulling like below:

4th Bb
2+4 A, but probably a bit #
1+4 G sharp, but sharp, pull 1 or 4
1+2+4 G sharp but flat, push in 1 or 4
2+3+4 G probably close
1+3+4 F sharp, but sharp, pull out
1+2+3+4 F, but probably sharp, pull out

I personally would not purchase a 4 valve non-compensated EEb tuba if I had to play below A. If it's an option, I'd opt for the 5 valve model.

finnbogi wrote:It is, however, quite nice to have these pedal notes accessible, for last chords of chorales etc. And of course, they also guarantee you to win the low note pissing contest - unless your oppenent is an organist.

Even then, if you have a BBb, you'll win, unless the organ has a 32' pedal register!

Your range sounds fine to me. I have never run into a written note above the bass clef in our band repertoire in the past five years.

There have been many pieces we have played with low A-flats (below the bass clef), but many of these also include the octave above. Almost all low G's (and lower) include the higher octave so a 3-valve Eb would only miss a few Ab notes (and hitting the octave on those -might- be acceptable to your leader.)

Though I must say (smug alert!) that a piece we played recently had a low G and our director asked me to do that on my 4-valve Eb (instead of the written octive) since the other two (3-valve) BBb tubas weren't giving him the full sound he wanted. Hah!

I routinely practice playing false/privileged notes on my Yamaha 321 Eb. Although I have four valves I sometimes use false tones for the low notes. With some practice these notes will speak well and sound decent.

If you do a little searching on this forum you should be able to find discussions on this topic. However, the way I worked on these notes was with octaves. Start with your A at the bottom of the bass clef staff 2nd valve. Than play the A the octave below 1,2,3. Now go back to the upper octave and play an Ab 1st valve. Now with that note in your ears, try to play the Ab down an octave. Don't worry if it takes a little effort to get the notes out. G can be played with the 2nd valve, Gb with the 1st valve, F with 1 & 2 and E with 2 & 3. Personally, I find the F to be the easiest to play. Always use octaves to ensure that your intonation is correct and trust your ears to work on the sound.

As a final aside, the notes will never sound the exact same as if you had four or five valves but when used in an ensemble no one will notice.

Best of luck and practice, practice, practice.

Henry Gertcher

iiipopes wrote:

finnbogi wrote:It is, however, quite nice to have these pedal notes accessible, for last chords of chorales etc. And of course, they also guarantee you to win the low note pissing contest - unless your oppenent is an organist.

Even then, if you have a BBb, you'll win, unless the organ has a 32' pedal register!

In which case, you can ask the organist to take the contest outside...

A few years ago, a brass group that I play with, played some renaissance/antiphonal pieces with (and against) a big Klais organ, which has some 32' voices. The organist used these to add another octave to my low final notes. It was pretty awe-inspiring - you rather feel than hear these notes.

Apparently, a few organs have 64' voices. Has anyone here heard these in action?

Neptune wrote:The only high register problem I have had is a tendance for the E above the stave to split using 1+2, so I now use just 2 instead.

Although my high E doesn't quite split using 1+2 on my Besson 981, it has a strong tendency to be flat so I also use 2. It also feels easier to play.

range is in the player - not the equipment. I know a euphonium player who regularly practices the low range tuba excerpts in the proper octave on euphonium. Blaming the equipment accomplishes nothing.

Roger

finnbogi wrote: Apparently, a few organs have 64' voices. Has anyone here heard these in action?

I think most of the so-called 64' stops do not actually have a low C that is 64 feet in length. They use the existing ranks to sound an octave ( P8 ) and also an octave and fifth ( compound P5 ) above that 64' note to try and give the aural illusion of the suboctave - I don't know too many people who could tell the difference between the resultant tone and a true 64 foot pipe at that range.
FWIW, many so-called 32 foot stops use the same technique utilizing the 16' pipes.

You can do the same trick with tubas, having them play in fifths to yeild a resultant tone an octave lower.

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-Eric

finnbogi wrote:Apparently, a few organs have 64' voices. Has anyone here heard these in action?

There are some not-real versions (electronics, incomplete sets of pipes, and resultants (a pair of pipes sounding in fifths for each note). There have only been two real 64' pipe organ stops built. Both are full-size, with a 64' long resonator for the bottom note. The organ in the Convention Hall in Atlantic City NJ USA (Midmer-Losh, 1932) has a 64' Contra Diaphone, however that organ is no longer in playable condition. The organ in Town Hall in Sydney, Austraia (Hill, 1890) has a 64' Contra Trombone stop. That organ is in good condition, and is used regularly.

I have not heard either of these two rare beasts in person. Those who have, described the 64' stop as adding some general rumble to the full organ sound.

There is something striking about these low organ pipes: When sounded by themselves, they are usually not impressive. When sounded with the rest of the ensemble going, they add a thrilling bottom to the overall sound. I think this is because most (but not all) of these really low pipes do not put out much in the way of overtones. They differ from tubas in this way.

[Those tubists who would compete with the pedal pipes in large organs should practice holding a real low note for a few dozen measures, with your tone shaking a stone floor the whole time!]

Cheers,
Allen

Actually, it's because that the only thing really audible is the overtones, which need the rest of the stops to reinforce them and by doing so, as Hemholz described, generate difference tones so the fundamental is reinforced as well. Low C of a 32' stop is @16.35 Hz, which is considered at or below the threshold of hearing already. So low C of the 64' stop is only @8.18 Hz, which is definitely below hearing and into the feeling range, and also so low you could actually see the reed clap on the shallot were you to be able to watch it.

As a point of reference of all this, back in the analog days, audio turntables, or I still call them record players, were designed to have their compliance as close to 10 Hz as possible in order that a simple high pass filter could take out as much rumble as possible.

Getting back to the original question about tuba range, I would rather cite two figures for the range of the player/instrument:

The first (larger) range is how high and low you can go and actually make pitches. Other tubists will be impressed, but not necessarily non-tubists.

The second (smaller) range is how high and low you can go to good musical effect. This is context-dependent. For example, a somewhat rattling sounding low false tone can still be effective under an entire band sound, but perhaps not in a brass quintet. Although some tubists can cover the entire trumpet range, the tuba itself is merely acting as a megaphone, not a resonator, and it sounds just like buzzing a mouthpiece -- a sound only a tubist could love.

I know an excellent tubist with a solid and reliable five-octave range. He is wise enough to only use the extremes of his range for novelty effects (pleasing his audiences), confining the rest of his playing to a much smaller range.

This is an argument in favor of asking a non-tubist musician what the range of a tuba is.

Cheers,
Allen

Bob1062 wrote:Out of curiousity, do Besson Eb's have false tones?

I could never get a false tone out of my Besson 981.

Bob1062 wrote:Out of curiousity, do Besson Eb's have false tones?

My Besson 983 yes, but they aren't useable.

Hey, bob1062 -- if you're really a low note freak, you'll love this:
http://www.contrabass.com/

I just finished a couple of church orchestra Christmas programs with low G's all over the place, many low F's and a few low Eb's. One of my quintet folder pieces has a slow descending scale down to the pedal C on my CC.

I've played BBb, CC, Eb and F over the past 25 years as an adult amateur. I would only buy a 3V Eb if I could play it first to determine the useability of the false tones. I had a 3V H.N. White "King" Eb at one time and didn't actually *like* using the false tones but it was possible. I was MUCH happier with my Besson 983, and with my present YEB-381.

If I were looking at the 2040, *I* would save a few more bucks and buy the 5V version without a moment's hesitation. But the odds are that you can play the low F in tune with a slide pull somewhere, so maybe the 5V isn't absolutely essential. I can't remember ever seeing a low E natural in any of the music I play -- which you won't likely be able to play on the 2040 4V version.

The only way I would look at buying a 3V Eb is if I had already discussed the price of adding a 4th valve onto it by a competent repair guy, like Lee Stofer, or the guy associated with Custom Music (sorry, I forget his name), or Matt Walters (Dillon Music) or the like.

Cheers,

St Pat's day last year I got to borrow an old Martin Eb for an out of town parade. It had really great false and real pedals. low Ab was open, G 2, etc. down to pedal Eb, then down a few more from there. So a 3-valve Eb with good pedals is out there, just few and far between.