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I have just started playing with a church brass ensemble and have a question for my tubenet brothers. Having never gone to college I never learned how to read and transpose treble clef and play it on the tuba. I have heard how to do it once with some people I played with at a local university I play at but cannot remember what they said. Any ideas so I can try it out? Thanks[/img][/list]

Assuming you play a Bb tuba or euph (if not, please ignore)

The right way to think of it: When you see Middle C (the note on the first ledger line below the staff) - Play a low Bb (open) but from now on, call it C as though you were a trumpet player. When you see a D (the note in the space just below the staff - Play a low C (1&3 or 4) - call this note a D from now on. etc.

If you don't have time to adjust your thinking (learn the new note names and fingerings) here's a trick you can try. Make a copy of the music you have to play. On the copy, draw two staff lines beneth each treble clef staff (where the first two ledger lines should be) and then carefully white-out out the top two staff lines. Add two flats to the key signature (or take away two sharps). Play as though you are looking a bass cleff part. Any note with an accidental should be played quietly.

--paul;

It all depends on which pitch of tuba you play. I would assume BBb.

Many people with your background have been around the trumpet, so basically use trumpet fingerings with adjustments, if a 4th valve is present.

Please tell your specific situation, because there are a whole lot of permutations of notations and instrument pitches, which it is impossible to cover within the frame of a posting.

This board holds a lot of competent and educated players and teachers. Most of us prefer very specific questions. It is like a reverse police investigation. Please never try to evaluate whether an information, music and instrument relevant of course, is important or not. You safely can leave that evaluation with us.

If your permutation is like I assumed, then I also could have suggested you to transpose up a fourth and correct for the accidentals. I am not convinced, that you would find that advise helpful, no matter how true it is.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

UARTuba wrote:I also would like help in this area. I may be playing in a British Brass Band in the near future, and I would be required to (re)learn to read in treble clef. I can and will be playing bot EEb and BBb. Could someone help with this? I tried sitting down and just reading it, but I got greatly confused. Help please.

Same fingerings as a Bb trumpet for the Eb horn. I've seen two different ways of treble notation for the BBb horn. One where C was open BBb and one where low G was open BBb (my copy of Jan Van der Roost's Stonehenge was like that). Should be pretty easy to figure out. C open BBb seems to be the one I've seen more of, even though I've only played a little brass band music on BBb.

Piano lessons also help so you can see the relationship between the staves. I went the other way from trumpet to tuba, and having had piano made it a lot easier. The one year I played baritone or euph at a high school band camp it was also much easier, as some of the music was written with just the American convention bass clef concert pitch, while a few pieces were imported and were written in brass band convention transposed treble clef. I just took it all in stride.

Good luck! There is a whole 'nuther universe of music out there for you to enjoy once you get a handle (or would that be transcriptions of Handel, and others) on treble clef!

iiipopes wrote:Piano lessons also help so you can see the relationship between the staves. I went the other way from trumpet to tuba, and having had piano made it a lot easier.

Ditto. My wife tells me that her young students who have taken a little piano before taking up flute seem to "get it" a lot faster than those who have only sung or played a different wind instrument. There's something about seeing that piano keyboard in your head that makes everything easier (particularly chords and arpeggios).

Trumpet fingerings are very useful to know. Right off the bat, you save about $20 on your Arban, since you can use the cornet version. Eb and BBb bass in brass band are played with the same fingerings (as are tenorhorn, euphonium, baritone and both keys of cornet). If you're playing F tuba, then reading french horn (in F) parts using trumpet fingerings also works.

If you're called on to play C treble clef on your tuba, you can use trumpet fingerings on a CC tuba.

There are really two issues here: treble clef and transposing.

Doc explained clearly where the notes are in the treble clef. Usually, a tuba player will play two octaves lower than written, so that "middle C" (one ledger line below the treble clef) will sound the same as the C two ledger lines below the bass clef. Adjust up or down an octave as you like. There is no more a trick to reading treble clef than there is to reading bass clef; just learn it. Any other approach will limit you.

The issue of transposing is a difficult one. Briefly, when music is written for an instrument "in Bb," that means that when C is written, a Bb is sounded. Similarly, for an instrument "in Eb," when C is written, an Eb is sounded. If a player is supposed to sound the notes as written, the instrument is said to be "in C." This scheme is partly for historical reasons, and also for the convenience of instrument doublers who want to be able to pick up a different-sized instrument and not learn new fingerings. Although these transposing schemes are mostly used for woodwinds and brass with a treble range, the British brass band people extend this to bass range instruments like tubas, tenor trombones, baritones and euphoniums.

If you learn treble clef to go with your bass clef skills, you can read from the top line of a piano or organ score (treble clef) or the bottom line (bass clef). Treble clef skill opens up a whole world of solo music (originally written for higher instruments), too.

Cheers,
Allen

Doc wrote:Lines - E G B D F ( Every Good Boy Does Fine)

Different phrase to we learn over here;

Lines - E G B D F ( Every Good Boy Deserves Favours)

(although I think yours is better!)

Making sure to leave the little bits necessary to make a second ledger line for each note as necessary, such as middle C to become low A.

iiipopes wrote:Making sure to leave the little bits necessary to make a second ledger line for each note as necessary, such as middle C to become low A.

In fact, if you can free your mind up a bit, there are really only two types of notational transposition:

• line to line and space to space
• line to space and space to line

There's a key signature adjustment that goes along with this, of course, which also affects accidentals. But transposing isn't that hard; horn players do it all of the time. Some are more difficult; I wouldn't want to read clarinet in A and play it on a Db piccolo, but the principle's the same.

Neptune wrote:

Doc wrote:Lines - E G B D F ( Every Good Boy Does Fine)

Different phrase to we learn over here;

Lines - E G B D F ( Every Good Boy Deserves Favours)

(although I think yours is better!)

Ernie Gave Bert Dog Food (For all you Sesame Street Fans)

Elvis's Guitar Broke Down Frequently (For all you "King" fans)

Empty Garbage Before Dad Flips (For all you ecology fans)

Even George Bush Digs Fishing (For all you republicans)

ken k

Or, for TubeNet fans,

Each Great Back answer Displays Food

(Sorry for my attempt at faint humor )

Don't waste your time trying to learn tricks. Just get you a beginning trumpet book and learn treble clef. It won't take that long.

I have known both clefs since high school and to maintain my proficiency
in the band I play euph in, I take whatever parts are left over (treble or bass) and at any given concert about half my music is treble and the other half bass clef. I don't use any tricks, just know both clefs.

Sorry, I should have said I was playing tuba BBb.(call it brain fade) Thanks for all the great advice. I'll try it the next time I get to practice. Someone had told me once to read some music in treble clef and add 2 sharps(do not remember what key that piece was in) That was the reason for asking. I just started playing again last may after being away for 30plus years. I'm just learning to play all over again.

Teubonium wrote:I have known both clefs since high school and to maintain my proficiency in the band I play euph in, I take whatever parts are left over (treble or bass) and at any given concert about half my music is treble and the other half bass clef. I don't use any tricks, just know both clefs.

But which bass or treble clef? How would trumpet fingerings by themselves help you to read a clarinet in A part? Or trumpet in D? Alto flute in G? English horn in F? Viola? Horn in H basso?

Knowing how to transpose iis a valuable skill worth developing.

Aren't some ouds tuned in B? But then they probably notate in tablature...

Teubonium wrote:Don't waste your time trying to learn tricks. Just get you a beginning trumpet book and learn treble clef. It won't take that long.

I have known both clefs since high school and to maintain my proficiency
in the band I play euph in, I take whatever parts are left over (treble or bass) and at any given concert about half my music is treble and the other half bass clef. I don't use any tricks, just know both clefs.

Yup. What he said.

Forget all the razzmatazz. Just do it. Agonizing over it won't help. Just do it. Witeout won't do it. Just do it.

Before too long you'll see the relationship.

It's really just that simple.

But ya gotta do it.

Chuck(G) wrote:

Teubonium wrote:I have known both clefs since high school and to maintain my proficiency in the band I play euph in, I take whatever parts are left over (treble or bass) and at any given concert about half my music is treble and the other half bass clef. I don't use any tricks, just know both clefs.

But which bass or treble clef? How would trumpet fingerings by themselves help you to read a clarinet in A part? Or trumpet in D? Alto flute in G? English horn in F? Viola? Horn in H basso?

quote]


I am speaking of euph parts only which are provided in bass clef and treble clef in concert band music.

Chuck(G) wrote:

Teubonium wrote:I have known both clefs since high school and to maintain my proficiency in the band I play euph in, I take whatever parts are left over (treble or bass) and at any given concert about half my music is treble and the other half bass clef. I don't use any tricks, just know both clefs.

But which bass or treble clef? How would trumpet fingerings by themselves help you to read a clarinet in A part? Or trumpet in D? Alto flute in G? English horn in F? Viola? Horn in H basso?

Knowing how to transpose iis a valuable skill worth developing.

Aren't some ouds tuned in B? But then they probably notate in tablature...

Personally I think scale study will have a bigger effect on this. Taking books like the Kopprasch, Tyrell, Rochut, and other books and playing them in another key than they are written would help students apply this. Most of those books are very tonal and transposition is as easy as trying to stay in the transposed mode.

I play a lot in treble clef, but not just "with trumpet fingerings", I think it is really important to be able to play in unison with most of the orchestral instruments and spend a little time each week being able to read and facilitate all the parts.

It is an EXTREMELY valuable skill. Because anything that makes you more versatile gives you MORE chances to play your instrument.

Doc wrote:Just learn plain old treble clef. All that "Trumpet in D", "Clarinet in Bb", "Tuba in Eb", and "Horn in F" crap is unecessary 99.9999% of the time. You will rarely read it. Most tubists NEVER read that ****. Besides, transpositions of that clef can't come before you learn the clef itself.

I don't want to step on any toes here, but, although these guys may have great ideas and good intentions, ONE HAS TO KNOW WHERE THE FRIGGIN' NOTES ARE FIRST! In addition, transposing is a completely different animal. Don't worry about that yet. You have to crawl before you can walk. It's a tough pull when you put the cart before the horse. Learn the treble clef well, then worry about what pitch comes out on which instrument in which transpostion LATER. Then, and only then, can you consider transpositions (with comfort in the clef), and much of the aforementioned advice will serve you well.

Doc (adamantly insisting that "first things first", "do it right the first time", and "you won't be sorry" are, without doubt, the only orders of the day here)

Yup!! You said it so much better than I, Doc.