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Honestly, I'm not really sure, but I've heard that the Tenor Tuba is a little bit larger...

Honestly, I'm not really sure, but I've heard that the Tenor Tuba is a little bit larger...

tubahippie wrote:What's the difference between a euphonium and a tenor tuba?

They're just names. For the same thing, loosely speaking. No one likes to speak loosely, because the language loses expressive value, but in this case there is no precise and clear cut distinction.

So the name tells you more about the player than the instrument.

The old style French C tuba, with its saxhorn construction, 6 valves so you can get all chromatics down to pedals, and bore and bell larger than a euph definitely qualifies as a tenor tuba which can also be considered, due to its tonality, a bass tuba, and was the original instrument for which Berlioz and others wrote what seem to be high tuba parts. On a French C, they're right in the middle.

In my mind, both a euphonium and a French C tuba would qualify as a tenor tuba, in the same way as an English 3+1 piston E flat tuba and a German rotary F tuba would both qualify as a bass tuba.

tubahippie wrote:What's the difference between a euphonium and a tenor tuba? I just play the tuba, not the tenor tuba, so I don't know. I do know that I love the euphonium. Can anyone shed some light?

The nomenclature is not standardized. I prefer to use "tenor tuba" as the general description of tuba-like instruments pitched in Bb or C in the same octave as trombones. There are a zillion terms for individual examples of these instruments, including "French C tuba", euphonium, baritone, baryton, tenorhorn (in some countries), and, yes, tenor tuba.

Most who believe that a tenor tuba is a specialized term rather than a generic term have the Alexander 151 in mind. It is a large, rotary instrument in Bb that gets a different tone than, say, a Besson euphonium. But it's no different from a euphonium than an Alexander F tuba is from a Besson EEb, both of which are bass tubas.

So, take your pick. It is likely, however, that you'll have to explain your meaning either directly or by context, so that people will know what you are talking about.

Rick "thinking euphoniumists apply much narrower meanings to terms than do tuba players" Denney

snorlax wrote:A real TENOR TUBA has a bore approaching that of a real BBb or C tuba and is played with a tuba mouthpiece...BUT it has the tube length of a Bb euphonium or is one step higher in C. That combination of bore and length makes it unwieldy to play.

And what bore would that be? I.E. What's the bore of a REAL tuba?

Lots of Euphs near .600" and I'll bet there are some around .625".
And many tubas with .650"ish bores, including mine at .656"

I've always thought that the terms "tenor tuba" and "euphonium" are essentially synonymous. "Tenor tuba" has been around longer than "euphonium" has, sayeth the experts, so I think it's largely a question of symantics.

You say po-tah-to and I'll say po-tay-to.

(Don't let Dan Quayle anywhere near that quote, please.)

Tenor Tuba and Euphonium may be synonimus, but I'm sure they are not just a matter of pronunciation...

I think that they are the same instrument. There is no difference between tenor tubas and euphoniums. But there may be differences between tubists and euphoniumists...

ThomasDodd wrote:Lots of Euphs near .600" and I'll bet there are some around .625".
And many tubas with .650"ish bores, including mine at .656"

Not to mention the Yamaha YBB-103 at .610" ...

I will submit that the term has much more to do with intended use than with subleties in construction.

The euphonium is a brass band intrument, which may be further modified by the use of an even smaller bore baritone.

If intended for use with an orchestra, the sound usually belongs in the tenor tuba range, given that it is very unusual to score specifically for euphonium.

I would also suggest also that is bore descriptive, but not always (French tubas in C and Conn double-belled euphoniums being obvious examples).

windshieldbug wrote: The euphonium is a brass band intrument... which may be further modified by the use of an even smaller bore baritone.

If intended for use with an orchestra, the sound usually belongs in the tenor tuba range, given that it is very unusual to score specifically for euphonium.

At the risk of picking nits, the euph isn't solely a brass band instrument any more.

Jukka Myllys, David Gaines have recently written concerti for the euph and orchestra.

This link may have been posted already, if so, my apologies. But it does contain an enormous amount of information regarding the euph and orchestra, much more than I had originally thought.



http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... honium.htm

windshieldbug wrote:I will submit that the term has much more to do with intended use than with subleties in construction.

The euphonium is a brass band intrument, which may be further modified by the use of an even smaller bore baritone.

If intended for use with an orchestra, the sound usually belongs in the tenor tuba range, given that it is very unusual to score specifically for euphonium.

I would also suggest also that is bore descriptive, but not always (French tubas in C and Conn double-belled euphoniums being obvious examples).

In these parts a Euphonium is a Euphonium and a Baritone is a Baritone - confusion only sets in when we find an American (usually) published set of parts which have a Baritone part in the set. Then we play it on a Euph.

A Baritone stays in the Brass Band and doesn't get day release

And if something says Tenor Tuba it means Euph

At least that's the usual take on this one in the U.K. but I will of course stand corrected if I've got it wrong

Andrew M

windshieldbug wrote:I will submit that the term has much more to do with intended use than with subleties in construction.

So, what was Holst's intention in The Planets? The part is marked tenor tuba, but it's written in the treble clef just like a brass-band euphonium part.

But I see your point. Holst was actually demonstrating the notion when he wrote "tenor tuba" in the part rather than "euphonium", even though, as Bevan says, there's little doubt as to the instrument he intended. He wrote tenor tuba precisely because it was an orchestral part and not a band part.

To address some other issues: I can't think of a tenor tuba that has a bore substantially bigger than modern euphoniums, when reported with the same consideration that is routinely applied to tuba comparisons.

For example, nobody calls a Miraphone 186 a BAT, despite that its official bore is larger than a Yorkophone. Everyone expects rotary instruments to have a larger bore merely because the valves are a bit further along in the bugle. Thus, one would expect an Alex 151 to have a larger bore than, say, a Willson 2950, even though both are about the same size.

And nobody expects, say, an Alex 163 BBb to sound like a Miraphone 186, even though most non-tuba-playing observers would be hard-pressed to note the differences from photos. Nobody looking at an Alexander 163 would expect it to sound like a Besson 99-whatever Bb bass. Those instruments are no more different than an Alex 151 and a Besson Sovereign euphonium.

We generally consider the differences between top-action, front-action, piston, and rotary configurations to be differences of varietal rather than species. In the genus Tuba and species Contrabass, valve type and arrangement (not to mention bore and bell size) are routinely described using plain adjectives. Such as: The Alexander 163 is a large-bore 4/4-5/4 rotary contrabass tuba.

If we try to make top-action euphoniums a different species from rotary tenor tubas, we are giving ourselves an organological headache we don't need.

I suspect a good player, with proper choice of mouthpiece and a specific commitment to a certain tonal concept, could make any decent, large euphonium sound similar enough to an Alex 151 so that the non-tuba-playing public would not note or care about the differences. It is true that an orchestral tuba player using a 151 for Bydlo will have a different tone concept than a brass-band euphonium player using a Willson 2950, but I think the major difference is behind the mouthpiece.

Thus, in the genus Tuba, there are tenor, bass, and contrabass species in common use. Each species is respresented by huge variety, just as homo Sapiens is represented both by tuba players and viola players, surely confounding even the broadest interpretation of the word species.

Rick "quoting Tolkein: Sheep look different only to other sheep, or to shepherds" Denney

Donn wrote:

tubahippie wrote:What's the difference between a euphonium and a tenor tuba?

They're just names. For the same thing, loosely speaking. No one likes to speak loosely, because the language loses expressive value, but in this case there is no precise and clear cut distinction.

So the name tells you more about the player than the instrument.

So, what's it say about a person if they're Anal Retensive against the 'Euphonium' being called a 'Tenor Tuba'?

tubaguy9 wrote:So, what's it say about a person if they're Anal Retensive against the 'Euphonium' being called a 'Tenor Tuba'?

It says that they don't spell "retentive" very well...

the elephant wrote:Man, Michael . . . you are one anal dude . . .

We pronounce it "lana" here, up north...

To add to the confusion even further, if you ask a representative sample of non-low brass players in an orchestra what a tenor tuba is, they would say it is the Wagner Tuba. (And they would be right, according to Bruckner, Strauss, and Stravinsky and others)
Eric Carlson

Plus -- and here's the irony -- from what Eric says, and from what others have noted, the euphonium is a doubling instrument in the orchestra. And in America, anyway, the trombonists all dust off an ancient Yamaha 321 to play the rare part whenever it comes along. Tenor tuba? Hah!

As always, Rick is right about the taxonomy.

So here's a proposed American naming guide:

Because "euphonium" sounds goofy. (you play a what???)

And "tenor tuba" is slightly pompous.

Therefore, as Bloke says, call it a baritone and be done with it.

And that little thing played in brass bands is an "English baritone."

John

snorlax wrote: Klaus...do you have a picture of it on YorkMasterPhotoGroup Nr. 6.02x10^23??

Klaus has got a Mol of pictures on that site?!
I'm afraid he might break the internet!