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I played this last year with my Youth Orchestra on my C Tuba and I'm playing it again this year for another orchestra, and I was wondering if people prefer the sound of a Bass Tuba on this piece instead of the Contrabass sound. Seeing that the part was written for Cimbasso (...I think), I was leaning towards the Bass Tuba to play it. Any feedback would be delightful

I used my Melton 2040/5 Eb when I played it and that worked just fine with the trombones favourably commenting on the blend. I very much like its opening!

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imperialbari wrote:Neither bass- nor contrabass tubas will lead to the result wanted by Verdi.

The problem is fairly easily solved, even if we all know the logistic and economical difficulties about having a true cimbasso available.
Verdi wrote for small-bore instruments, where even the F or BBb cimbasso was of a narrower bore than a modern bassbone.
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I think you have illuminated the central issue with music of this (and earlier periods), however it's wrong to discount the use of a tuba in today's orchestras to acheive results wanted by Verdi. You've rightly stated that he wrote for small bore instruments but are today's trombonists using small more instruments? Are the trumpets?

To carry the argument to a logical point, are the woodwinds using correct instruments for the period? Where are those Albert system clarinets? And lastly, are the strings using gut instead of wire?

The answer in all cases is probably no. Everything has gotten bigger and louder. We are nowhere near results wanted by Verdi.

Additionally, we depend on the conductor (and the financial manager) to make musical decisions. As orchestra members, we interpret what we are told to do.

imperialbari wrote: Where musicological knowledge is available indicating an optimal solution within a modern and practicable reality, then such indications shall be followed.

It is pathetic, when tubists insist on playing tubas on parts, where tubas do not belong.

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Today Bydlo invariably is for the euphonium, if a French C tuba is not available.

Again, don't call the tubist's decision pathetic. Call the conductor's decision pathetic or blame the evolution of the modern orchestra.

Bydlo may invariable be played on euphonium but a colleague recently suggested this to a well known conductor who in return specified that he play it on F tuba. What are you going to do, appeal to artistic ethics board? Nah, you are going to sit down and play the damn thing on F tuba just like the conductor said. So, don't blame the tubist.

In response to the initial post. If you want to use an instrument different from your regular tuba, in most cases ask the conductor first.

Alex C wrote:

The answer in all cases is probably no. Everything has gotten bigger and louder. We are nowhere near results wanted by Verdi.

Let's put a twist on your post:

What if the sounds Verdi wanted did not exist during his lifetime, but do now. Isn't it possible what we play now is closer to what he actually heard in his head?

Just a thought!

BVD Press wrote:What if the sounds Verdi wanted did not exist during his lifetime, but do now. Isn't it possible what we play now is closer to what he actually heard in his head?

I believe it is fairly well documented that Verdi did not like the sound of the tuba (funny man!). However, the fact remains that this work has been regularly performed using tuba for the last 100 years. It is only recently, due to the influence of "period orchestras" that its use is being questioned. However, should not music be 'living art' rather than a 'period' reproduction, adapted to suit modern tastes and circumstances? That is a subject for debate in its own right.

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I'll bring my Eb because I'd like to try it, but I may be thwarted if the whole low brass section plays the intro chorale, seeing they took 3 Tubas, and probably 4-8 Bones.

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imperialbari wrote:The points said against my somewhat pointed standing are well known by me.

As for a conductor specifying an F-tuba for Bydlo, then I am sad for orchestras having to play under conductors ignorant about instrumentation history.

The conductor in question is not ignorant of the instrumentation history, in fact, he is well regarded in many circles and normally quite encouraging toward the brass.

If he intended authenticity, I suspect he would have had the trombones and trumpets play tiny bore French instruments and add the typical French vibrato. Would it have been better to have a French tuba (or equivalent) and kept the typical American brass in the rest of the orchestra? This conductor did not, but the point is that the choice of tuba for Bydlo or Nabucco is not always in the hands of the tubist.

Your original post blamed the "pathetic" choice of instrument on the tubists and this example was simply to show that it is not always the fault of the tubist. Probably I should have just let you rant but I had to stand up for my colleagues (for the most part).

I tend to agree with Brian, that Verdi's concept of performance may not have existed in his day and may not exist now. The performances we hear today are the result of the conductor's "interpetation" of the score; little blame can be laid at the feet of the musicians. To the contrary, my experience is that the musicians often rise above the faded interpetations of many conductors.

I definitely think that instrumentation for every work needs to be decided on a case by case basis... and that depends on the orchestra, union, conductor and the musician.

If an orchestra is paying for 3 trombones and a tuba at a particular concert, and given how orchestras in general are struggling financially, it would be stupid for them to hire a 4th trombonist (or cimbasso player) and have the tuba player sit that one out. I think that would be a waste of money... who in the audience is going to realize the difference? They are the customer, right? I doubt they'd want to pay extra to have an authentic cimbasso player for the Nabucco Overture. I don't see people complaining when they play Symphonie Fantastique without using opheclides.

In regards to Verdi's wishes and the sound he wanted... well... he's dead. There's no way of knowing what sound he would prefer if he were alive today. I'm not much of a history buff, but isn't it possible that Verdi did not like the sound of the tuba along with bright small bore trombones... add period trumpets and horns? I think that with the modern orchestra sound we have today that the tuba fits quite well into the mix... perhaps better than it did back in the day.

I think you can make Nabucco sound good on bass tuba, contrabass tuba, bass trombone or cimbasso. They all will sound different (to us, not necessarily so much to the audience or possibly even the conductor) but they can still sound good.

Back to the original post, use whatever instrument you like. Keep your ears open and do what sounds best. Seek input from the trombone players as well as the musical director. Don't worry so much about equipment, but more on sound concept. I think it's silly to worry about changing equipment so much when the current equipment has such a wide variety of sound and color at it's disposal.

I also just wanted to note that I agree with something said earlier about the other musicians not switching instruments. They don't change instruments based on the time period of the work. I see violin players playing on the same exact instrument when they play Mozart/Bach/Haydn vs. when they play Stravinsky/Prokofiev/Shostakovich.

However, the do change their sound, color and style. They by no means play the same all the time. I don't see why we should be expected to change instruments when they do not. Instead of swapping instruments, just change the way you play your instrument. Maybe change the mouthpiece... but that's it!

I messed around last year with Nabucco on my ophicleide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoCaBi4rvOA

It worked well, I think. Not sure if it would carry in the orchestra though. I have Aïda coming up, and I'm debating using my French C or the ophicleide for it. There's only one low Bb in Aïda, but it could be octaved, I guess. I only have a C ophicleide.

I did it! Nabucco overture on the ophicleide!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQKlA4S7IM

I just played a rehearsal of an early Verdi overture last night on a cimbasso. In the first rehearsal I used an F tuba, because that was what I had with me.

Having played the same piece, with the same orchestra, same conductor with two different instruments, one week apart, was a great opportunity to learn.

I have to say that I preferred the cimbasso sound. Even though Verdi did not have a cimbasso available to him until later in his career, I think that the early overture benefitted from the lighter sound of the cimbasso.

I would submit that the concept of your sound, within the ensemble, is of much more importance than which instrument is employed
in the performance of a given work. That said, there are a wide variety of instruments out there, and one would be wise to look at their
options, and use what makes it easier to achieve the desired goal. I could play Nabucco with my Martin Mammoth, BBb, but unless I was
the only tuba in a very large concert band, I would not.

My personal inspiration of "tuba du jour" for Nabucco was to go to the recording of the NBC Symphony Orchestra/Toscanini/Bell. For me, 'nuff said.