Pinched Embochure??
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Dan Schultz
- TubaTinker
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Pinched Embochure??
A tubist in our community band is dealing with what I think might be a 'pinched embochure'... and consistantly plays 20-40 cents sharp no matter how far out he pulls his tuning slides. This might be complicated by the fact that he has severe hearing loss and tinitus. I am also an amatuer and have been able to suggest nothing other that getting a good tuner and learning what the notes are supposed to sound like. Any suggestions?
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker"
http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
"The Village Tinker"
http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
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CJ Krause
- 4 valves
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Matt G
- 5 valves
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Seriously,
If the person has bad enough hearing loss and is essentially listening through his/her jaw, then this really explains it.
From what I remember, if sound is being heard through the jaw then every thing will sound sharp since sound travels faster through a denser medium.
Wait...
Wouldn't that make him play flat?
Heck, go with Joe's idea.
Or you could suggest that he vent his tuba to fix the intonation. This is what I would use:
Other wise, just push the tuner idea. If you can get someone to lend a strobe tuner, this would be even better.
If the person has bad enough hearing loss and is essentially listening through his/her jaw, then this really explains it.
From what I remember, if sound is being heard through the jaw then every thing will sound sharp since sound travels faster through a denser medium.
Wait...
Wouldn't that make him play flat?
Heck, go with Joe's idea.
Or you could suggest that he vent his tuba to fix the intonation. This is what I would use:
Other wise, just push the tuner idea. If you can get someone to lend a strobe tuner, this would be even better.
Dillon/Walters CC
Meinl Weston 2165
Meinl Weston 2165
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MikeMason
- 6 valves
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joe's pedagogy
joe, go ahead and elaborate and this might turn into a really useful post....
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imperialbari
- 6 valves
- Posts: 7461
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am
Often it has been Joe replying for me, when time zones are at play, so I will not be too shy about replying to this one:
Pro's and amateurs apply different types of economy to their playing styles.
In general pro's have very well trained embouchures, which will respond very efficiently to steady, that is well controlled, air supplies. Pro's, at least the younger and healthier ones, have these large air capacities and these embouchures not needing very much air to initiate very full sounds. That creates very desirable situations of bodily and instrumental surpluses, which the best pro's, let's call them the artists, utilise for one certain very attractive purpose: making great music. A purpose furtherly supported by an often not very economical choice of efficient musical tools (sometimes called musical instruments).
Amateurs often are economical in quite different ways:
They often play cheap and badly maintained instruments through mouthpieces haphazardly chosen by criteriae not including neither knowledge nor common sense.
They often are very economical with their practising time. Ideally, in their terms, they should pinch it down to zero.
They often are very economical in the sense, that they don't carry the burden of knowing even elementary playing techniques not to speak of elementary ear training or knowledge of musical structures (sometimes called theory).
So amateur musicians have developed their own type of intelligence, which says: avoid the core in the typical sound of your instrument. The core sound simply takes too much work to activate, it will bog down the "fluency" of your "technique", it prevents you from playing with "expression" like the "beautiful" vibrato of a quarter-step to each side of a basic "pitch" already way off any "arbitrary" standards like A=440 or even A=442.
And please remember, that amateurs are the true music lovers! (I rather would be hated than having such lovers, but then I am the odd man out).
And then amateurs have a great ability to accumulate problems: take a trumpet player already adhering to the above outlining of amateur standards, and then give him a tuba. And you have invited a disaster. Not necessarily socially, but certainly musically and pitchwise.
Hearing losses not always will explain odd musical behaviour.
Most age inflicted hearing losses DO NOT inflict on musical perception, unless one plays piccolo flute or is a violin virtuoso operating in the uppermost flageolet ranges.
Aage Haugland, my sadly deceased countryman, got a cancer making him loose the hearing of one ear. With bravery and talent he continued his career close to his untimely death.
One of his first appearances after the original surgery was with a major US symph, I think it was the CSO. AH at the first rehearsal asked for the understanding of his handicap. Which was granted in an unsuspected fashion: a very significant percentage of the musicians pointed to one or both of their own ears. And then the rehearsal went on in the most productive spirit.
You will find musicians, which cannot understand the instructions by the conductor, if he does not face them at an angle allowing for lip-reading, but who still know more about the musical occurrences, than does the conductor.
So hearing loss rarely explains pitch problems, whereas a truly amateur attitude certainly does.
Klaus
Pro's and amateurs apply different types of economy to their playing styles.
In general pro's have very well trained embouchures, which will respond very efficiently to steady, that is well controlled, air supplies. Pro's, at least the younger and healthier ones, have these large air capacities and these embouchures not needing very much air to initiate very full sounds. That creates very desirable situations of bodily and instrumental surpluses, which the best pro's, let's call them the artists, utilise for one certain very attractive purpose: making great music. A purpose furtherly supported by an often not very economical choice of efficient musical tools (sometimes called musical instruments).
Amateurs often are economical in quite different ways:
They often play cheap and badly maintained instruments through mouthpieces haphazardly chosen by criteriae not including neither knowledge nor common sense.
They often are very economical with their practising time. Ideally, in their terms, they should pinch it down to zero.
They often are very economical in the sense, that they don't carry the burden of knowing even elementary playing techniques not to speak of elementary ear training or knowledge of musical structures (sometimes called theory).
So amateur musicians have developed their own type of intelligence, which says: avoid the core in the typical sound of your instrument. The core sound simply takes too much work to activate, it will bog down the "fluency" of your "technique", it prevents you from playing with "expression" like the "beautiful" vibrato of a quarter-step to each side of a basic "pitch" already way off any "arbitrary" standards like A=440 or even A=442.
And please remember, that amateurs are the true music lovers! (I rather would be hated than having such lovers, but then I am the odd man out).
And then amateurs have a great ability to accumulate problems: take a trumpet player already adhering to the above outlining of amateur standards, and then give him a tuba. And you have invited a disaster. Not necessarily socially, but certainly musically and pitchwise.
Hearing losses not always will explain odd musical behaviour.
Most age inflicted hearing losses DO NOT inflict on musical perception, unless one plays piccolo flute or is a violin virtuoso operating in the uppermost flageolet ranges.
Aage Haugland, my sadly deceased countryman, got a cancer making him loose the hearing of one ear. With bravery and talent he continued his career close to his untimely death.
One of his first appearances after the original surgery was with a major US symph, I think it was the CSO. AH at the first rehearsal asked for the understanding of his handicap. Which was granted in an unsuspected fashion: a very significant percentage of the musicians pointed to one or both of their own ears. And then the rehearsal went on in the most productive spirit.
You will find musicians, which cannot understand the instructions by the conductor, if he does not face them at an angle allowing for lip-reading, but who still know more about the musical occurrences, than does the conductor.
So hearing loss rarely explains pitch problems, whereas a truly amateur attitude certainly does.
Klaus
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MikeMason
- 6 valves
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tone
Klaus, i think it would behoove us to remember who makes up a large percentange of our membership(membership? ,yeah i think so). hobbiests and enthusiasts. let's maybe educate and be educated without the condescension. unusual tone for you, i think....
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imperialbari
- 6 valves
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- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am
Mike, you cannot on the one hand ask for an explanation for the phenomenon reported by Joe, and then on the other hand be cross, when the explanation is given (or at least aspects of it).
I am a strong proponent of amateur musical activity. I have taught and conducted a lot in that field. And after my retirement also played there a lot.
In my eyes and ears the problems arise, when amateurism is made the very ideology of the musical activity.
That happens, when intonation is something the instrument is made responsible for. A sample would be the locally "prominent" baritone/euph players who can spend a lifetime playing upper range counter melodies, where the 6th partials are extremely sharp and the 8th partials are flat. If asked to change that, they just say, that the instrument came that way.
Another sample would be the locally "acclaimed" cornet soloists, which with an ugly throat vibrato (the volume, not the pitch, oscillates) play the tears into the eyes of the old ladies at the nursing homes. They almost also play tears into my ears, if I have to play in unison with them on my euph. Either I display their written 1st finger D being a quarter step flat and their 1+3 low D being a quarter step sharp (because they feel themselves way above using the trigger or throw ring in the latter case). Or I corrupt myself musically by discarding all my hard work towards being able to play in tune.
I must admit, that I have corrupted myself a lot in such contexts, but I rather regret that, as that prevented the situation from improving.
Amateur music can be a fine vehicle for social activities, but if the music is not respected in its own right, then the "players" should rather play bowling or pool. If they absolutely want to form marching bands, then they can take an example from Northern-Ireland, where they have marching bands made up of accordions and drums. Or if that also takes too much practising, then do as a kid's group did for a carnival in Northern England: they formed a band of marching kazoos.
And from what my several private correspondents tell me, the situation in the US doesn't differ much from what I hear here. But for one point: our bands are not overloaded with aggressive saxophones. And we don't fear the baritone sax as a piece of artillery. Actually I have experienced some very fine saxophone playing in bands over here. When I told a US friend about a visiting Norwegian youth band with a full section of classically educated saxophone players, he was most surprised.
But then you have extremely fine bands in the US. I certainly have experienced much listening joy via this link:
http://www.army.mil/armyband/audiovideo ... pirit.html
(For reasons unknown to me, the army.mil server is not accessible in this moment of writing)
Klaus
I am a strong proponent of amateur musical activity. I have taught and conducted a lot in that field. And after my retirement also played there a lot.
In my eyes and ears the problems arise, when amateurism is made the very ideology of the musical activity.
That happens, when intonation is something the instrument is made responsible for. A sample would be the locally "prominent" baritone/euph players who can spend a lifetime playing upper range counter melodies, where the 6th partials are extremely sharp and the 8th partials are flat. If asked to change that, they just say, that the instrument came that way.
Another sample would be the locally "acclaimed" cornet soloists, which with an ugly throat vibrato (the volume, not the pitch, oscillates) play the tears into the eyes of the old ladies at the nursing homes. They almost also play tears into my ears, if I have to play in unison with them on my euph. Either I display their written 1st finger D being a quarter step flat and their 1+3 low D being a quarter step sharp (because they feel themselves way above using the trigger or throw ring in the latter case). Or I corrupt myself musically by discarding all my hard work towards being able to play in tune.
I must admit, that I have corrupted myself a lot in such contexts, but I rather regret that, as that prevented the situation from improving.
Amateur music can be a fine vehicle for social activities, but if the music is not respected in its own right, then the "players" should rather play bowling or pool. If they absolutely want to form marching bands, then they can take an example from Northern-Ireland, where they have marching bands made up of accordions and drums. Or if that also takes too much practising, then do as a kid's group did for a carnival in Northern England: they formed a band of marching kazoos.
And from what my several private correspondents tell me, the situation in the US doesn't differ much from what I hear here. But for one point: our bands are not overloaded with aggressive saxophones. And we don't fear the baritone sax as a piece of artillery. Actually I have experienced some very fine saxophone playing in bands over here. When I told a US friend about a visiting Norwegian youth band with a full section of classically educated saxophone players, he was most surprised.
But then you have extremely fine bands in the US. I certainly have experienced much listening joy via this link:
http://www.army.mil/armyband/audiovideo ... pirit.html
(For reasons unknown to me, the army.mil server is not accessible in this moment of writing)
Klaus