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I just noticed this in the Wikipedia encylopedia entry:

In continental European music, parts for the euphonium are sometimes written in the bass clef but a major second higher than sounding pitch.

The only place I have seen this type of notation is in the Strauss tone poems Don Quixote & Ein Heldenleben. Both these parts were originally written for Wagner Tuba in B-flat, which explains the unusual notation.

Are there other examples of B-flat bass clef parts for euphonium, out there or are these the only examples?

Eric Carlson

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I think I remember some wind ensemble music (or arrangements?) by (Joseph?) Horovitz that was in Bb transposed bass clef. I don't remember exactly because I was playing tuba, but I definitely remember at the first rehearsal the euphonium player having a real hard time figuring out why his part sounded so awful.

Also, I pinna della Via Appia from Pines of Rome by Ottorino Respighi, there are two parts labeled Buccina (e Flicorno Basso) that I believe are typically played on euphonium... and they are in Bb transposed bass clef.

I would like to note that in the Cherry Classics low brass excerpt collection, there are transposed bass clef parts for both the Richard Strauss Ein Heldenleben and Don Quixote. I also believe there are similar transposed parts in the Torchinsky collection.

Is that so? I don't recall ever reading that anywhere. If these parts where originally written for 'Wagner Tuba' in Bb, why were they written in bass clef instead of Bb treble clef like other tuben parts?

There was a substantial article about these parts in the horn association journal a few years ago. From what I recall reading, the premieres of both pieces were done on Wagner Tuba, but Strauss was not pleased with the results, and eventually approved euphonium as an acceptable alternative.

I have been told that in a couple of European orchestras, Heldenleben is still done on Wagner tuba. I believe that the Zurich Tonnhalle orchestra may be one orchestra that does it this way.

I don't know what is the most common way to notate low Wagner Tuba parts. I seem to recall that in one or more Bruckner symphonies there is some doubt as to which octave is intended for the B flat Wagner tuba parts. Maybe Strauss wanted to make it perfectly clear that these were low Bb parts by putting them in bass clef?

Eric Carlson

Since Wagner Tuben are generally played by horn players, I'm guessing that what would have been a Bb basso part for horn (Bb transposition in bass clef) was left that way for the WTs. I agree the bass clef was probably done on purpose to make sure that the players knew it was a basso transposition, as opposed to Bb alto.

Reminds me of the pro horn audition I heard of, where one of the *sight*reading* parts was in A basso, bass clef. The fellow who wrote about it had heard prior auditionees clamming it up something horrible, and he decided, when he saw the part, to pretend he didn't know it was in A and to just read it in F. Then, when the committee pointed out his error in reading, he would already have a clue as to what it sounded like and would hopefully do a better job on his second try in the right transposition. But the committee said nothing, and they awarded him the position.

MA

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But the committee said nothing, and they awarded him the position.

James T. Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru test.

imperialbari wrote:Bass clef notation in Bb and eb is quite common, if not the rule, within the Dutch and Belgian world of concert bands. May also be seen in some French editions.

It's the rule. Most of my neighbours in band can't even read anything else. All the french music I see (both band and solo) also uses this notation. If I ask for a concert pitch part, i.e. when we play a US piece and the Bb bass part is a sloppily handwritten affair, they always look at me with big eyes: "but you're not playing a CC tuba?

Yo

If you look at Belgian or Dutch published Band sets, you will get Bb in Bass Clef parts for all the lower Brass - Trombone, Euph and Tuba as well as 3 Flugelhorn parts. All of which are published for "Fanfare" Bands where Flugelhorns take the place of the Clarinets - a Dutch variation which I'll let someone else explain away..............



Andrew M

And thanks to you Brits, one also gets a set of treble clef parts for tubas in E flat and B flat.
So there are four different versions of the tuba part, and oddly enough, the chances of getting the one you can actually read tend to be less than 25%.

All I can say is, I'm glad my college band director stuck with American and English band music. If I had needed to add transposed Bass Clef to the treble, alto, tenor, & bass clefs that I have to read regularly on the trombone I think my head might have exploded.

Eric Carlson

Perhaps in the future there will be a way out of all this brain-damaged transposition nonsense: We can all have computer screens on our music stands instead of paper music. With a touch of a few buttons, we can view our parts in any clef and transposition. Thus, the feeble-minded can have their transpositions, and the real musicians can see the real notes at concert pitch (give or take an octave or so).

This post has not been certified as opinion-free.

Cheers,
Allen

Allen wrote:Thus, the feeble-minded can have their transpositions, and the real musicians can see the real notes at concert pitch
Cheers,
Allen

Hmmm... In my world, every high-level musician and/or world famous conductor can read in 7 clefs, sight read any transposition and do all that in multiple staves. The ones who can't spend their time in the anonymous masses playing tutti parts in a local orchestra. (or, more likely, flipping burgers)

corbasse wrote:

Allen wrote:Thus, the feeble-minded can have their transpositions, and the real musicians can see the real notes at concert pitch
Cheers,
Allen

Hmmm... In my world, every high-level musician and/or world famous conductor can read in 7 clefs, sight read any transposition and do all that in multiple staves. The ones who can't spend their time in the anonymous masses playing tutti parts in a local orchestra. (or, more likely, flipping burgers)

Hmmm... In the jazz and rock worlds there are plenty of musicians who can't read music at all. And, many of them make more money than anyone in your world.

Now that it has come up, it would be a little interesting to see how the finances of Murray Perahia stack up those of Oscar Peterson.

To me, there is an ENORMOUS difference between:

a) musicians who are willing and able to read any notation/transposition so they can play any tune in any key, or at least try.
b) musicians who don't read music, but are willing and able to play any tune in any key by ear, or at least try.
on the one side

and

c) musicians who only read "normal" notation and are proud of it,
on the other.

This concept of "normal", by the way, seems to depend a lot on where and when the musician was brought up and trained. It can consist of any sort of transposition/clef/tabulature or combination thereof. All too often these musicisians also annoyingly tend to percieve their way as the one and only correct and true path.


I have to admit it's not all about income, but I believe it's a lot harder to get anywhere with mentality c) without selling your soul as my fellow countryman depicted above

I can remember taking the Musical Content Examination for Public School Teachers for California many years ago and one of the "sample questions" went like this:

The clowns who put together the test wrote:When an E-flat tuba player plays an E-flat concert scale, what key is he or she actually playing?
A. E-flat
B. C
C. D-flat
D. B-flat

And, looking at the back of the book, the answer was...

D-flat...

because the E-flat tuba is a transposing instrument!

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That wasn't my reply. That was the answer in the back of the book!!!!

I should also add that the question was written the same way it was written in the book, too. It was ambiguous from all sides.