What does it mean when a tuba is a "demo model?"

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Chuck(G)
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Post by Chuck(G) »

Demonstrator models are often the horns that no one wants, so be careful.
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imperialbari
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Post by imperialbari »

I would be very cautious about buying this specific instrument.

The starting price is way too high.

The seller is new to the online auction in question, hence no established auction feedback.

The seller's screen-name and his/hers location may lead to the idea, that the seller may be a certain tuba retailer, about whom quite a number of tubists tend to have strong opinions.

In general I would say this about "demo" instruments:

Aside from certain especially lucky specimens, which some makers let do the convention and conference round, demo instruments have question marks attached to them. (These "super-demo" instruments are far too valuable as PR-agents to be sold).

The usual demo instruments earn their names for other reasons.

Some instruments are dented by potential (and often not-so-potential) customers. The retailers sometimes choose to sell them at a discount rather than to take them apart and un-dent them. These demo instruments can constitute very good value, if they were good players from the beginning. Customers like myself, who go for musical function rather than looks, tend to be happy with buying such instruments.

But then there are the instruments, which earn their demo status by being not so good players. Customer after customer try them, and leave them in the store. The Germans have a term for such shelf warmers: Ladenhüter (= watchmen of the store). Such instruments shall be discounted extremely hefty before they become interesting buys.

With an on-line auction it is impossible to determine, which sort of demo this actual instrument is. Anyway the price is far too high to make it interesting in any of the categories.

When buying via on-line auctions, one shall never pay more for any single instrument, than there is a margin, which shall act as sort of insurance premium, which will ensure, that one comes out on top in the long run, even if there should a few cheaters among the sellers. Sadly it is so, that even large and renowned retailers can behave oddly, when they operate on the on-line auction market. I have experienced that personally and will never buy anything from their store. If a seller shows two faces, it is the dirty one, which is the true one.

Some experienced observers of the on-line auction marketplace tend to be astonished, what buyers end up paying. I just lost an auction, where the winning bid was 3 times as high as my highest bid. Poor winner of that auction.

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Roger Lewis
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Priced higher than new

Post by Roger Lewis »

Be cautious - this price on a demo horn is higher than a brand new one with a case.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson
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imperialbari
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Re: Priced higher than new

Post by imperialbari »

Roger Lewis wrote:Be cautious - this price on a demo horn is higher than a brand new one with a case.
It is good for this forum, that there are responsible postings like this one

And very sad that we also shall be presented for the "be happy, enjoy, (and pay)" used-car-salesman-type of postings. Of course such postings are also responsible. But only towards "funny" sellers, who want to shift dubious goods onto less experienced buyers at far too high prices.

I wasn't aware that TubeNet was about the latter sort or responsibility.

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Lew
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Re: Priced higher than new

Post by Lew »

Roger Lewis wrote:Be cautious - this price on a demo horn is higher than a brand new one with a case.
Roger,

In January, before I bought mine, these were selling for about $5300 new at the WW&BW. After reading your message I went online to check their price and see that it has gone up to over $6500. I agree with being cautious about buying a demo horn on ebay, and that the price is higher than a new one did cost, but can they still be had new for less than $5800 in silver?
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Chuck(G)
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Post by Chuck(G) »

musician wrote:Think about a "demo" car in the same manner. Usually a car with all the bells and whistles is used as the "demo" and the same is true of musical instruments. Using a "bad" instrument for a demo is not very smart. The store doesn't want to "demo" something nobody would want and neither would a car company.
David, you're assuming that the seller is telling the pure unvarnished truth.

Consider that this might well be a horn that's been passed over repeatedly by prospective purchasers. Naturally, it gets a bit shopworn. An enterprising seller might then consider it to be a "demonstrator' and wouildn't necessarily be bald-faced lie.

Just my take. I'd think that if it were a really good sample, it'd be gone by now--the 983's a popular horn that should have no problem selling.
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Post by Rick Denney »

imperialbari wrote:...And very sad that we also shall be presented for the "be happy, enjoy, (and pay)" used-car-salesman-type of postings....
Is there an example of a post deserving such a warning in this thread? I must have missed it.

I have bought demo models on several occasions, and always managed to get a good, if not outstanding example. The demo models often make the conference tour, and attract scratches and other signs of having been handled a lot. This was the case with my Yamaha 621 F tuba, and I got a really good discount because of it.

As the buyer, it's still up to me to determine 1.) what is a good deal, and 2.) does the horn in question meet my needs. I would say that this at least as true with a horn out of the box as with a demo, and maybe moreso. The demo might have a couple of scratches, but it also has been played a lot, and if it has problems, they've likely been corrected where possible.

Although, I bought my Sanders as a demonstrator lo these many years ago, and there was a solder gap in the second-valve branch. It played a lot better after I fixed it, which makes me wonder who had actually played it when it was a "demonstrator". I suppose that means there are demonstrators and demonstrators. The ones used for conferences and in really active showrooms might have more promise than the ones that are marked as "demonstrator" as a means of pushing it out the door with enough of a discount to make sure it really goes.

In the future, were I contemplating a new instrument, I'd be perfectly happy to consider a demonstrator, and would apply the same criteria to its selection as any new tuba (except that I'd want a better discount).

Rick "who has bought three demonstrators to-date" Denney
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Re: What does it mean when a tuba is a "demo model?&quo

Post by Dan Schultz »

Tubist of Time wrote:I finally found somewhat of a deal on a Besson 983 on ebay. It says it's a demo model. What does this mean?
Well, I'm certainly not shopping for a Besson... but, if I were, I would be in direct communications with the seller and would be asking all the questions that you have mentioned. Send the seller an email and arrange to speak with him by phone.
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Post by Leland »

Rick Denney wrote:
imperialbari wrote:...And very sad that we also shall be presented for the "be happy, enjoy, (and pay)" used-car-salesman-type of postings....
Is there an example of a post deserving such a warning in this thread? I must have missed it.
I think Klaus was talking about the eBay post, and not any of this thread's posts.
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imperialbari
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Post by imperialbari »

What I paraphrased was:

"Good luck with the purchase. You might get a diamond in the rough. Since we always recommend kicking the tires before a purchase, you are the judge. Go for it!"

This is very bad advise! Especially when given to a player, who reveals his inexperience by asking, what a demo is. (But who after all is smart enough to ask the TubeNet).

There is no such thing as tire kicking on eBay. Nothing can be judged until the buyer's money have left the buyer's control (no credit card safety available in this case).

Had the instrument in question been a diamond in the rough, it had long ago been picked by one of the customers visiting the retailer's shop.

This bad advise is conform with the supplied wrong definition of a "demo" in our low brass context. Either the poster in question is ill informed about the trade of upper grade brasses, or his mind is not that of a musician, but that of a salesman of the not too desirable type. There is a precise term for that.

Chuck(G) probably is the one, who most clearly has outlined the problems potentially attached to the interpretation of the "demo"-term.

RD and I both have expressed having good experiences with buying demos, but then we both are fairly well experienced buyers, also in pro contexts in each our trade.

The TubeNet has a reputation of being THE place to go for relevant advice on low conical brasses. Part of that reputation is about giving relevant advise at the level of experience explicitly and implicitly expressed by the asking poster.

There is a very precise term for saying "Go for it!" to an insecure buyer about an overpriced, non-testable, eBay item.

Such advises do not contribute to the credibility of TubeNet.

Everybody of course may disagree with me, but will their personal credibility gain from doing so?

We cannot exist without the fair information by tuba makers and distributors, but most of us are tuba-CONSUMERS.

RD makes me draw a very contoured picture. But then you all should have seen a tread on one of the 2 fine horn lists, where the funny credit card practises of a major brass dealer were displayed. The "poor" dealer got the chance to give a reply. Where he involuntarily confirmed the nature of the complaints.

Such threads do not constitute pleasant reading, but they can be necessary to keep up good business practises even in our extremely small niches of the global marketplace.

Klaus
- who has been close to the inside of the brass retail-business, but who also has been on the board of large food retailer - as a consumer representative
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