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Guitar Center bought the huge Music and Arts Centers awhile back to give it the band/orchestra market in the schools and pretty much kept things the same as usual. I would expect them to do about the same with this acquisition, if history is a guide.

I'll be watching to see what happens to the private label stuff. Giardinelli already has its own private label instruments, so it seems that there will be some redundancy with the WWBW brands (Barrington, Allora, whatever). Giardinelli has no private label tubas. So maybe the mighty Allora 186 and 191 will still be around.

I certainly hope so, Ollie.

Anyone know if was or is Allora Roger's baby or WWBW?

BVD Press wrote:Anyone know if was or is Allora Roger's baby or WWBW?

WWBW for sure. I was the one that sent the first Miraphone over to be copied before I left. I never saw the copy, though.

I read the news today, Oh Boy
4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancastershire
And though the holes were rather small
They had to count them all
Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall

king2ba wrote:

BVD Press wrote:Anyone know if was or is Allora Roger's baby or WWBW?

WWBW for sure. I was the one that sent the first Miraphone over to be copied before I left. I never saw the copy, though.

Well, a friend who'd ordered an Allora (on my recommendation) got one that played almost 30 cents flat with the tuning slide pushed in. They promised to send him a replacement (this was in December). He doesn't have it yet--and I'm looking like the south end of a horse for recommending them. Roger, of course, is no longer there.

This does not augur well in my humble opinion for the newly-owned company. So beware.

I suppose I'll volunteer to cut down the main tuning slide for him if they continue to give him the runaround.

Before their web person hosed up all the user reviews, the Allora 186 had a bunch of positive reviews. On mine: All the slides in. Pull the main tuning slide 1/2 to 3/4 inch, and you are ready to rumble. Good intonation. Nothing quirky.

SplatterTone wrote:Before their web person hosed up all the user reviews, the Allora 186 had a bunch of positive reviews. On mine: All the slides in. Pull the main tuning slide 1/2 to 3/4 inch, and you are ready to rumble. Good intonation. Nothing quirky.

I have a feeling that the variation in Alloras is somewhat greater than one would like. When visiting WWBW a few months ago, I played an Allora copy of the 191 next to a real Miraphone 191. They were not on the same planet in terms of sound, response, and intonation. They looked the same, but they didn't play the same. Given my belief that shape is nearly all in how a tuba plays, I can only assume that the Allora had terrible valve misalignments, solder globs, and maybe even a leak or two. Either that, or something critical but not obvious in the shape was different, like, say, the taper of the leadpipe.

But I try not to extrapolate on the basis of one negative example. A positive example, on the other hand, at least demonstrates that the design isn't flawed and that a good result is possible given enough sampling. I'm assuming there are good examples of Alloras I haven't tried.

Rick "who has played the occasional bowser of a Miraphone, too" Denney

I received a WWBW catalog in the mail yesterday, so at least for now it appears to be business as usual.

The catalog pro'ly went in the mail before yesterday...

Bob1062 wrote:The worst thing about these is how much they cost. If I can buy a real 191 for 300 more than a Dalyan 191, what do you think I'd do?

Before you decide what the price of a Dalyan is, actually call Orpheus and get a quote. I have this feeling that you are comparing the list price of Dalyans against the street price of Miraphones. Orpheus is an importer, not a retailer, so they'll publish the list price in order to give their dealers room to negotiate. That's how it was in the past when I bought a Vespro tuba from them and I'm sure it's still that way.

WWBW's published Allora price already has their usual discount built in.

Rick "recalling a well-under $3K price for a 4/4 Dalyan, with hard case" Denney

If the Allora tubas stick around, you can exercise some patience and, eventually, one will show up as new open box or used A-stock. That's how I got my Allora 186. I think I can out-cheap-a$$ Bloke.

The B-stock ratings seem to have a rather wide range, so I wouldn't be in a big hurry to grab one of those without a good description (which they rarely provide) or a personal inspection.

Patience can save you a lot of money.

===== PATIENCE ======

Ja. That be the 191. I kept waiting for the right deal. I intended to wait for a mondo deal on an Allora 191, but with the goings on at WWBW and the appearance of the Miraphone deal, I figured it was time to buy.

Quality-wise, my Allora compares rather well. You'll notice it isn't for sale (although technically, everything is always for sale). The fit of the Allora slides is at least as good, if not better. I'd say the lacquer is little heavier and more durable on the Allora -- the Miraphone has some small spots where the brass is patina-fying. The response and intonation is a little more even on the Allora, but I'd guess that is more of a 186 versus 191 design thing rather than a brand thing.

However, the 191 does have noticably more balls to its sound. I reckon thats the appeal of those 5/4-ish horns. Playing with the church band, I really had to work at holding it back. I eventually took out the Jim Self replica and fell back to the trusty 66D4 to lighten up without loosing the deep tone. I'm working on controlling the thing with the Jim Self. The Bach 12 don't do too bad either.

Based on my Allora 186, especially after comparing it first-hand with the Miraphone 191, if mine representative of the line in general, I have no reservations about recommending it.

After Musiciansfriend bought Giardinelli, the store moved from Upstate New York to Oregon. Will a similar fate happen to WWBW?

PRS made basses for just a couple years or so in the early or mid 90s.

Musician’s Friend Inc., which owns the Guitar Center chain of stores and is the nation’s -- if not the world’s -- largest retailer of musical instruments, will buy South Bend-based Woodwind and Brasswind.

the nation’s -- if not the world’s -- largest retailer of musical instruments

=

CEO/CFO type business people (bean counters) running the business. Bean counters don't like $x,xxx,xxx worth of tuba inventory laying around waiting for tubists to pop in and buy one. Ask BrookMays.

I'm thinking that the job of selling professional-quality tubas just got a little less competitive.

MileMarkerZero wrote:CEO/CFO type business people (bean counters) running the business. Bean counters don't like $x,xxx,xxx worth of tuba inventory laying around waiting for tubists to pop in and buy one. Ask BrookMays

Only if your Business Strategy is that. It COULD be to sell low volume, higher quality. Ask Lear Jet. The didn't decide that that is their strategy (low cost/high volume) and compete with Cessna. They went a different route, and made it work.

Saying that, I have no idea about WW/BW or their new owners.

DP wrote:Is LearJet the largest manufacturer, or even a larger manufacturer than Cessna? Something about comparing manufacturers to retailers makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I don't have to make sense, I'm a tuba player!

Ok, say your local Ferrari (of North America) dealership versus your local Ford dealership? Who's got the nicest lot?

Not to be nitpicky or anything, but Guitar Center (NASDAQ: GTRC) is the parent company of all these companies. I don't know what they plan to do with the WWBW, but their corporate model is high volume, low price. How the WWBW is going to fit with Music & Arts will be curious. Then again, Guitar Center has web-based sales, and so does Musician's Friend. I wonder if they will just consolidate their distribution centers?

Is LearJet the largest manufacturer

The thing with LearJet is that the lion's share of their business is custom designed, pre-ordered corporate jets and a nice fat US gov't (USAF) contract. Most of what they sell is paid for before the first rivet is driven home.

The LearJet analogy is more akin to ordering a special tuba from Gerhard Meinl and paying for it in advance.

FWIW, Music & Arts Center does not offer tubas on their web site. It's listed in the text (twice) but does not have a link like the other brasses.

http://www.musicarts.com/products/products.cfm?id=1002

To chase the analogy down a little different path, it's like the local Ford mega-center buying the local Jag dealership, then only keeping a couple of Jags in inventory and selling mostly Fords. Good for the masses, but it sucks for the few in town that want to buy a Jag.

AFA operating them seperately, that seems to be what is happening with M&A and GC. However, if they follow the M&A model with WW/BW, it is clear that M&A is focussed squarely on the school music programs, offering little in the way of professional quality instruments.

Fewer choices for professional quality instruments = bad news for professional (or aspiring professional) musicians.