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I'm still new at having a piston horn (Miraphone 1291) and I'm having a little trouble with my valves getting sluggish. I've played rotary horns for the past 10 years or so, and I'm a bit new at all of this "maintenance."

Anyway, my valves got sluggish last week, so I gave my horn a bath. It helped for a very short time (1 or 2 days). Then the valves got so sluggish that I might as well have just packed up and left rehearsal.

So tonight I gave it a bath again. A little dish soap, cleaned the casings with a brush, etc. Re-oiled the valves, and good as new. Phew, no problems. I played for about an hour after that, and problem solved. But I just checked about 10 minutes ago, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th valves are all sluggish again...the 1st valve is fast as lightning though.

Now I'm not trying to turn this into a "what oil do you use" post, but I'm using Binak 495...I've heard it's sensitive to being mixed with other oils...could that be it?

Any suggestions? What might I have missed? This is all a new problem to me in the past 2 weeks or so. The last 6 months have been trouble-free.

Help?

Hey,
I don't know much about the valve oil you are using, but I know there are def. some out there that can react badly to mixing it with other brands. You could try a thinner oil. Make sure to oil the valves each time you play (rotary valves don't take nearly as much in the way of oiling). Check the valve guides, if they are plastic make sure that when you oil your valves, try not to get oil on them (they will expand and slow down the valve in the channel).
Hope any of that helps,
Bill

duckskiff wrote:I think you've got residual soap. Even a little can make valves gum up fast.

I don't think it's soap, because it happened before I even cleaned it. Could be the oil though, probably worth switching it up...

duckskiff wrote:

bort wrote: Could be the oil though, probably worth switching it up...

The guys I work with are starting to recommend the Hetman oil.

I've heard that too...plus, here's their "marketing talk" about the Hetman #1 oil. Seems at least worth a try:

"Light piston oil - possibly the best oil for newer horns or horns with Monel valves. If your valves are hanging up after you oil them with another product, switch to this."

I think the only thing you have missed is taking it to a professinal technician from the start.

Dennis"one who takes his car to a mechanic because he does not pretend to know how to repair an automobile" Pollard

Remember that some of the synthetic oils may not mix with some of the more traditional oils, and overzealous greasing of the top slides can let some of the grease get into the valves also, slowing everything down. Before I took it to a tech, I would once again clean thoroughly. Did I say thoroughly. Then rinse. And rinse again. Then rinse some more. Did I say rinse? Oh, yeah, rinse.

After all that, if your valve oil bottle has been around too long, go ahead and drop a few bucks on a new bottle of your favorite oil. My favorite is Roche-Thomas: clear, colorless, odorless, does not dilute, lasts forever, cheap.

A lot of people are Hetman devotees, with good reason, as they have top notch stuff, with a comprehensive assortment for slides, valves, rotors, and compensation for new, everyday, and nearly wornout valves.

Snake oil has teflon and some consider it the best, bar none. It's just that for me the cost of a one ounce bottle of Snake Oil gets me a 16 oz bottle of Roche-Thomas.

I've tried the rest of the "popular" brands over the years, and they either run dry too soon or gum up for me.

Did you snake out the leadpipe and all the other tubes leading to and from the valves? Gunk anywhere close to the valves can easily move and cause your problems.

My experience is that Hetmans mixes fine with whatever.

I would also try Blue Juice (stinky, smelly, cheap), it always works!

Lots of folks have trouble with Binak mixing with other stuff. I'd clean it really good again then use something else. If you don't get all the Binak out, I might repeat that.

Bort,

I used BiNak for awhile and it worked great for a short time. After a few weeks it got real fussy for me. I was always having to clean my valves and re-oil. Also... I couldn't use any of the standard slide greases. I had to use BiNak oil on the slides as well—I didn't care for that.

About 2 years ago I switched to Hetmans Light Piston Oil (HET-1) and all my problems ceased. Even though Hetman's is synthetic, it does 'play well with others' (slide grease).

Hope this helps.

Tuba-Chin wrote:You might be applying some small lateral force on the pistons which will slow down the valve considerably.

I think I used to have that problem on a B&S 3181 I used to have, but never managed to avoid it myself. That is the main reason I now play rotary valve tubas.

However, I hope you manage to sort out your slow valves - there is nothing more frustrating!

Your cleaning method (along with valve oil choice) might be to blame for what you are experiencing.

Keep in mind that dish soap will dissolve whatever grease and oil is on or in your tuba. Perhaps slide grease is being dissolved in your inner slide tubes and is running into the valve section where it is mixing with your Binak and creating some kind of sludge.

Be sure that you disassemble the instrument as much as possible and clean each component separately. This means that you should pull, degrease, clean, and re-grease your slides, and clean the pistons apart from the body of the tuba itself.

When you clean the body of the horn, be sure to snake as much of the tubing out as you can (especially your leadpipe) and take special care to not scratch the casings or push goo down into them. Be sure that you clean out the area between the valves good, too. Lots of junk likes to accumulate there. When you're done snaking out the tubing, go back and do it two or three more times. This ensures that it is about as clean as possible (via homebrew methods) and that anything that was "broken loose" on the first pass will get pulled out on the second, third, or fourth pass.

As other posters have suggested, you might have more soap in there than you think, too. The remedy for this is to go easy on the soap, but more importantly to rinse, rinse, rinse, and rinse some more.

As for Binak, I would have thrown that away yesterday. I tried it once...made a mess of my otherwise fine valves and slides (even with "compatible" grease), gave me the only sticky valves I've ever had in my life, and gave me headaches when I finally had enough and tried to remove all traces of it. Anything out there is better than Binak, in my opinion.

It sounds to me like you have some kind of chemistry issue with Binak mixing with your slide grease plus (possibly) some dish soap residue. Clean it again, rinse it super well, and use something other than Binak. I have a hunch your problem will go away.

That said, the occasional chem cleaning is a good thing to have done, too. Not only does your horn get cleaned, but it's a good chance for a technician to make sure your instrument doesn't have any issues and to fix any that it might have.

Once it gets chem cleaned, avoiding food & drink right before and during playing (along with brushing your teeth) can go a long way towards keeping it nice and clean.

Edit: If you have owned the tuba and played it often over the past 6 months, the valves should be broken in and you should have developed a good feel for how to operate them correctly.

Hope that helps!

Double check the valve guides for gum and what not. That slot can be a pain and the source of trouble.



Just my 2 cents.
Bonde

[quote="Tom"]
As for Binak, I would have thrown that away yesterday. quote]

AMEN!!! Toss the Binak - I used it on my Piston horn and had the same experience you did. Cleaned the pistons and casings, switched to ANYTHING else, no more problems. The anything else was Al Cass, Conn (ancient bottle still worked), lamp oil...

I recomend a good, fresh oil, but my experience is that even wiping the valves and casings as dry as I could get them was better than Binak (desperation in the middle of a performance)

Hi all,

Thanks for all the good advice. Turns out that it was an oil-based problem. I got a new oil (Hetman #1), re-cleaned, and everything is now lightning fast.

And for the record, I ALWAYS brush my teeth before playing, and only drink water when playing. I actually have a toothbrush and toothpaste in my gig bag "just in case."

I use Binak on my tuba, but have found that it doesn't work well on some valves. It makes them sluggish as you describe. Try some good old Holton valve oil. It's a good weight oil for low brass; not as thin as many trumpet oriented valve oils. I actually mix the Binak and Holton, which works well for me. Try the Holton first and if it's too thin try a little Binak with it until you get a mix that works for you. I know it says not to do that, but I've been doing it for years with no problem.

Thats exactly a contributing factor. Rule of thumb, never mix oils (unless you are confident there is a brand good for mixing) Also make sure your horn, the casings/pistons are bone dry and clean before you re-oil and replace them.

Kevin

bort wrote:Hi all,

Thanks for all the good advice. Turns out that it was an oil-based problem. I got a new oil (Hetman #1), re-cleaned, and everything is now lightning fast.

And for the record, I ALWAYS brush my teeth before playing, and only drink water when playing. I actually have a toothbrush and toothpaste in my gig bag "just in case."

Where is your fun?


It is like a fungus farm in my horn. I enjoy diet coke while playing, have been known to partake in the brew, and love some Jimmy John's Subs as well during a good practice session.


I'm sure every time I take them in for cleaning, the repair guy shakes in his boots.

bort wrote:Hi all,

Thanks for all the good advice. Turns out that it was an oil-based problem. I got a new oil (Hetman #1), re-cleaned, and everything is now lightning fast.

And for the record, I ALWAYS brush my teeth before playing, and only drink water when playing. I actually have a toothbrush and toothpaste in my gig bag "just in case."

A good example for all of us. Now if I would only get a gig bag for my tuba first....

To summarize and add a couple of things:

1. Grease and valve oil don't mix, even when they are compatible. Keep grease out of the valves by whatever means, including avoiding excess and avoiding dissolving grease with valve oil.

2. Don't use BiNaK. I have experimented with it and have also found that some instruments don't like it no matter how much they are cleaned, and when it goes bad because of interaction with oil it goes bad all the way. I switched to Hetmans and that has eliminated a range of problems that I had with BiNaK.

3. Here's a new one: New valves require time to build and then polish the oxidation on the inside of the brass casing. That oxidation, which is just the brass turning brown, is rough (at the microscopic level) when it forms. It polishes smooth with use. Scrubbing it off with a tarnish remover starts the process over again, so I don't do it. The solution is dedicated, frequent oiling and cleaning until the oxide layer forms and polishes. The oxide layer will prevent future oxide formation.

4. Make sure you clean the valve guides and channels as carefully as the casings and pistons.

5. Push straight down, which is mostly accomplished by putting your finger on the valve button and not on the edge of the valve button.

6. Remove and oil the valves before every playing session, without fail. Don't put stuff into the horn except lots of air.

I had terrible troubles with my Yamaha 621, especially playing outdoors in hot temperatures. I did all these things, and eventually had the valves honed a bit by a technician. Yamaha valves are built to tighter tolerances than most, and too tight for my needs.

Rick "been there, done that" Denney

I bought the green bottle

Green is thick stuff for regular horn slides. Works pretty good for that; maybe not so well for trombone. I use it and like it. For valve horns, it doesn't seem to be a problem if it sneaks down into the horn; it just thins out and blends when it hits the regular valve oil.

Blue label is thin stuff for valves, but way too pricey for me. I use the commodity sized bottle of cheap stuff (Giardinelli or Roche (same stuff, I think)), and lots of it, for valves, protecting the inside of slides, lead pipe, generally drenching the horn in oil. I like oil. Oil is good. You haven't oiled properly unless it is running out of the bell.