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Has anybody tried the "selman" tuba's seen on ebay all the time. My gut says they are total junk but dang - they're cheap. Do they play decently? Would they be adequate for someone who plays only a couple of times a year? In my brain red flags are up but Ebay has a blem for $750 bucks.

pianolance wrote:Has anybody tried the "selman" tuba's seen on ebay all the time. My gut says they are total junk but dang - they're cheap. Do they play decently? Would they be adequate for someone who plays only a couple of times a year? In my brain red flags are up but Ebay has a blem for $750 bucks.

And of course "It's genuine Selman, not one of those cheap imitations"!

I bought a Selman Alto Trombone when they had them on sale for $69. I figured at worst I could make a lamp out of it! What I got was a fairly decent horn. The slide worked great, very smooth, the finish wasn't bad. It came with two different lead pipes and a case. I don't have alto tbone chops but it seemed to play nice. A few of my buddies tried it out and were impressed.

My favorite is the "German Engineering" brand. IIRC, there was also a "French Engineering" for saxophones.

Chinese wienerschnitzel.

Genuine Selman. When the "Made in China" label goes on - the quality goes in. Seriously, here are some actual quotes from the ad on ebay.
"DO NOT BUY OTHER THROW AWAY TUBAS!" --no, buy this throw away tuba instead.
"On the other side of the Bell is Model #15432 stamped into it showing that this is not one of those cheap imitations."
--Because we all know that if there is no model number stamped into the bells other side it's a dead give away for being a cheap imitation Chinese piece of crap.
"It Also Has The Serial Number!" --Why on earth would it need a serial number, it already has #15432 stamped into the other side of the bell.
"This is the *REAL* 2007 Selman and not a cheap imitation!" --The cheap imitation Selman sells for $29.95 and has no number stamped on the other side of the bell.
"Finally, a Brand New Selman Tuba that Sounds and Plays Superbly" --all previous new Selman tubas sounded like crap and played like you were trying to blow a golf ball through 50 feet of garden hose.

Well, I still haven't decided if I'm going to buy one of these but it's a lot more fun now that I have had a chance to heckle the ebay ad.

BTW - here is the link to the ad if you are interested in seeing a genuine Selman for yourself: http://cgi.ebay.com/85-OFF-NEW-TUBA-SEL ... dZViewItem

You know, looking at this horn (14 3/4" bell, 0.700 bore), I'd love to get my hands on a B/C-stock or damaged model and rework it. The dimensions are right for great little quintet horn.

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FWIW, for my friend with the Allora BBb that my friend bought from WWBW, he finally got a response from them that they didn't have any non-blem ones that they could ship.

So I shortened the main tuning slide for him (was pretty easy as the durned thing has 1 1/2" ferrules on it. I redid the slide with some of those short rounded (Besson?) nickel ferrules (about 1/2" tall). It's now possible to play it in tune.

You know, looking at this horn (14 3/4" bell, 0.700 bore), I'd love to get my hands on a B/C-stock or damaged model and rework it. The dimensions are right for great little quintet horn.

My little 0.709 bore, 14 3/4" bell Chinese job -- overlooking the overly thin laquer job and tight-ish slides that required some hand working to loosen up -- plays most excellently. Great, easy response all the way down to 123 E, and intonation as good as any 3-valve horn out there, I'd wager. Rotors are smooth with very tight tolerance. Whatever 0.709 by 14 3/4 design is floating around out there seems to be a good one.

FWIW, for my friend with the Allora BBb that my friend bought from WWBW, he finally got a response from them that they didn't have any non-blem ones that they could ship.

Bankruptcy does seem to put a slight kink in the inventory. That's why I gave up on getting a new Allora 191 and went for the used Miraphone.

So I shortened the main tuning slide for him (was pretty easy as the durned thing has 1 1/2" ferrules on it. I redid the slide with some of those short rounded (Besson?) nickel ferrules (about 1/2" tall). It's now possible to play it in tune.

You apparently worked on the limited edition A415 baroque "Telemann Tuba" model. I'd like to hear how owner and you like it after you've driven it around the block a few times.

You have to admit it was nice of those Chinese to throw in a little extra free brass.

SplatterTone wrote:My little 0.709 bore, 14 3/4" bell Chinese job -- overlooking the overly thin laquer job

Strip the old stuff off, give it a nice buffing to get all the stuff they missed the first time around, clean with lacquer thinner and then paint on some water-based Incralac. Great stuff, really tough coating, no baking--and an anti-tarnish ingredient in it.

I like the way the Allora plays--the sound isn't quite as focused as the old 16" bell Miraphone 186 (I don't care for the 17" bell ones), but it's plenty big and the valves seem pretty tight.

pianolance wrote:Has anybody tried the "selman" tuba's seen on ebay all the time.

I haven't, and really won't buy things made in China just in general, but I don't doubt that they're commonly a good deal.

But I have some reservations about some of the parties who are flogging these Chinese instruments on Ebay. See http://www.geocities.com/yuenli_low/trombone/ebay.html for more background. I don't have any connection, or personal experience one way or the other, but if you think about what it takes to succeed in that particular niche, it's hard to expect much better.

Donn wrote:I haven't, and really won't buy things made in China just in general, but I don't doubt that they're commonly a good deal.

But I have some reservations about some of the parties who are flogging these Chinese instruments on Ebay. See http://www.geocities.com/yuenli_low/trombone/ebay.html for more background. I don't have any connection, or personal experience one way or the other, but if you think about what it takes to succeed in that particular niche, it's hard to expect much better.

Donn, I want to know how you can avoid buying things made in China. It's like crabgrass--it's everywhere.

To be fair, that article that you cited hasn't been updated in a couple of years--things have improved somewhat. I figure if Orpheus is selling Dalyan, well, they don't sell junk.

Yes, those eBay tubas suffer greatly from careless assembly and finishing. But if you're willing to put some money/time in reworking the horn, you can get some very decent results.

I don't know about these Chinese tubas, but their cars sure do appear to be reliable.

I don't turn folks away just because they bring a 'no name' instrument in for repair. These brands are here to stay (or others like them) and the market will tolerate what will sell. The public dictates the quality. Many of the parts that go into brands we tend to trust come from sources outside of the US. Most of the student line horns with well-known brand names are manufactured completely outside of the US. Some of the imports present a very good value for the dollar. Sure... some of the finishing leaves something to be desired... and some of the tolerances need a little more work... BUT how can one expect a horn that sells for $1,500 to be of the same quality as one that sells for $7,500??!

I have yet to see a Selman, but I DO have experience with the M & M line. Aside from a few minor problems with the finish (such as acid bleed), attention to detail (such as poor slide alignment), and some minor tolerance issues... I haven't seen anything that can't be corrected with minimal work. Actually, if you can buy a horn for 25% of what others sell for... even if you have to spend another couple hundred bucks adressing a few minor issues... you can end up with a descent horn at a substantial savings. I think this is an important issue... especially in the case of entry-level horns that are prone to suffer major abuse. I've just seen too darned many Yamaha YBB641's smashed to smithereens in just a couple of years.

I do cameras, too. Russian/Ukrainian cameras were notorious for there lack of quality control. I guess if they made their quota for cameras for the month, everything was cool. Didn't matter if they worked...

A few camera repairmen began specializing in these camera and some actually offer a gurrantee that the camera works fine and they actually are a good value for amateurs. (I know Rick Denney uses these sorts of cameras)

If I knew about repairing instruments, I would consider buying a few of these "Selmans" on spec, going through them, correcting problems and add a premium to the price for the trouble. Might even be a good project to give apprentices practice repairing horns before actually working on expensive stuff.

"Selman 4/4 BB-flat presented by The Big Ben" would be a good sounding name, wouldn't it? And school programs would get acceptable horns for reasonable prices.

Jeff

Chuck(G) wrote: Donn, I want to know how you can avoid buying things made in China. It's like crabgrass--it's everywhere.

To be fair, that article that you cited hasn't been updated in a couple of years--things have improved somewhat. I figure if Orpheus is selling Dalyan, well, they don't sell junk.

Sure - buy from people who don't sell junk! That's the moral of the story.

I get stuck with a Chinese thing once in a while, mostly when I'm in a hurry. If you have time to do the research, you find out about a lot of great stuff that isn't on the shelves at your local retailers (especially the big boxes), and often costs more, but also will work better and last longer.

Donn wrote:I get stuck with a Chinese thing once in a while, mostly when I'm in a hurry. If you have time to do the research, you find out about a lot of great stuff that isn't on the shelves at your local retailers (especially the big boxes), and often costs more, but also will work better and last longer.

As one of the posters on a list I frequent says "I can't afford a cheap tool."

The Big Ben wrote:I do cameras, too. Russian/Ukrainian cameras were notorious for there lack of quality control. I guess if they made their quota for cameras for the month, everything was cool. Didn't matter if they worked...

This brings up a range of issues that must be asked with any product at a price that is too good to be true:

1. Is the design acceptable?

2. Does the workmanship provide the basis for a reasonable repair?

3. Will the product work reliably?

The third item really comes into play with those Ukrainian cameras. (By the way, are you a member of the Kiev Report? If not, PM me and I'll hook you up. If so, I don't recognize your name.) To take two examples: The Pentacon Six was made in former East Germany. The design was exacting and the camera looks, smells, and feels like a quality piece of gear. But the design is a bit too exacting for East German production quality, and they have a reliability problem. Great art is quite possible using it. The alternative in the same configuration is the Kiev 60, which uses the same lens mount. It's built like a cheap alarm clock, and design with limited features and loose tolerances so that it will work reliably even when built poorly. You may have to go through several to find one that works, but once it works it usually stays working.

Both are good designs in that both, when production fulfills the requirements of the design, produce excellent results.

The St. Petersburg tubas provided the best analog to the Kiev cameras (as the old B&S provided to the Pentacon cameras). The designs were simple and solid, and the construction marginal. Often, some work is required to make it reliable, but in the end the tuba is at least a tuba and not a tuba-shaped brass decoration.

Many of the Asian instruments were, at first, tuba-shaped brass decorations. No amount of fiddling will make them a playable tuba, because their design is flawed. They made copies but made compromises in those copies without understanding the effects of those compromises (and without, apparently, understanding a diatonic scale). Some of the Ukrainian cameras (such as the ill-fated Kiev 90) were just camera-shaped sculptures--they never worked even when constructed perfectly.

But I think most of them are past that stage now, and the designs are passable. Production is still a problem, but often some aftermarket tweaking will overcome that issue.

Guess what--I could have just been describing a King 2341.

Even high-end tubas are expected to receive a little fine-tuning by the retailer. I remind that to my Kiev camera friends when their new Kiev 60 doesn't synch with the flash, or measure light properly within two stops.

Rick "who thinks the Dalyan tubas he's seen were solidly, if not beautifully, constructed" Denney

pianolance wrote:Genuine Selman. When the "Made in China" label goes on - the quality goes in. Seriously, here are some actual quotes from the ad on ebay.
"DO NOT BUY OTHER THROW AWAY TUBAS!" --no, buy this throw away tuba instead.
"On the other side of the Bell is Model #15432 stamped into it showing that this is not one of those cheap imitations."
--Because we all know that if there is no model number stamped into the bells other side it's a dead give away for being a cheap imitation Chinese piece of crap.
"It Also Has The Serial Number!" --Why on earth would it need a serial number, it already has #15432 stamped into the other side of the bell.
"This is the *REAL* 2007 Selman and not a cheap imitation!" --The cheap imitation Selman sells for $29.95 and has no number stamped on the other side of the bell.
"Finally, a Brand New Selman Tuba that Sounds and Plays Superbly" --all previous new Selman tubas sounded like crap and played like you were trying to blow a golf ball through 50 feet of garden hose.

Well, I still haven't decided if I'm going to buy one of these but it's a lot more fun now that I have had a chance to heckle the ebay ad.

BTW - here is the link to the ad if you are interested in seeing a genuine Selman for yourself: http://cgi.ebay.com/85-OFF-NEW-TUBA-SEL ... dZViewItem

Making these claims is like saying...
100% Real Cubic Zirconium...We know...that's saying it a 100% real fake! (might be worth more if it wasn't all real cubic zirconium

bloke wrote:

and the construction marginal.

Has anyone on this forum been threatened with a lawsuit for (to quote Richard Milhaus Nixon) "say[ing] this about that"?

Is marginal bad?

Rick to Vendor: "I would like to see one of your Willson 3200 F tubas"

Vendor to Rick: "We don't have one available right now. Have you tried our St. Petersburg?"

Rick "sigh" Denney

Okay, we have heard about a Selman French Horn, Alto Trombone and Euphonium - all of them seem to indicate that there is a least a measure of quality to these horns. Any actual tuba experience? What I find amusing is the emphasis on the name - Genuine Selman - not a cheap imitation. Since this is an obvious attempt to capitalize on the Selmer name, this begs the question, Since when has Selmer been particularily noted for its quality tubas?

BTW - if you find that your wedding ring is 100% Genuine Cubic Zerconium you can at least take heart in the fact that it probably wasn't stolen.

The Chinese horns are getting better. They're still nowhere near the quality of a 25000$ new horn but bang for the buck is hit and miss, some companies will be excellent, some horrid, some passible...