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Recently, I played a concert with the orchestra under a fancy dancy guest conductor. We played (among other things) Gershwinnnngg's American in Paris. You all are familiar with the tuba solo at the end I am sure. Well, Mr. Bigbucksguest wasn't happy with how I played it artistically speaking. He stopped the orchestra, told me something unclear and made me play it again. He still didn't like it.

The next rehearsal I played it how he requested the day before, and he STILL didnt like it. Mind you, not a word was said to the violin soloist OR the bass clarinet soloist.

I practiced it quite a bit, recorded myself, and ultimately decided I would play it how I wanted at the concert because the director couldn't make up his mind. I put some flutter tounge on the last accented note before the end of the solo. People seemed to like it, but I never heard what the guest conductor had to say about it. I just assumed he wasn't impressed because he didnt seem to like the brass section all that much.

So, the point of this lengthy post is to ask you all, in a solo such as this where there is little else going on, how much should the interpretation be left up to the whim of the player? Or should the conductor dictate the end result? Also, there is the question of "traditional interpretations." I like to inject my own flavor into what I play. I feel it is what keeps music like this fresh and interesting......

I've heard the VW with an alternative cadenza. And i've heard people growl during the bear.



It is like a lot of other stuff in the world. When you are really good, it is artistic expression. When you aren't incredible, it is blasphemy.



I just try to play it as well as possible, play the right notes and tempi, and give it a style characteristic of the piece or section being played. Not gonna touch the "great" cadenzas either. Because I'd be the blasphemist, not the artist.

hmmm.....
I had heard that Gene Pokorny played a quote from Lohengrin in his American in Paris when he played a concert at Ravinia (not sure if it's 100% true). It seems that Gene Pokorny at Ravinia, O.K. he has tenure and probably a good relationship with the conductor, but even if not, he is still Gene Pokorny.

Young player (I'm guessing College?){only because you called it just Orchestra and called the conductor the director, but if I am wrong I'm sorry} who is playing in an educational environment under a conductor, who most likely has lots of experience taking some unconventional liberties might not be a good idea. FWIW even for me as a freelancer, if I was playing a gig and unless I had that tuba spot nailed down (tenure or for the smaller orchestras, just knowing that I'm their guy) I wouldn't really mess with it, because I want to get called back to play again, so I can pay my bills. I really wouldn't do it in an audition, because I would like to make the next round.

The educational system should really be teaching you not only how to be a good musician/ technician but also how to get and better yet KEEP a job, so if I were your instructor I would try to steer you toward an acceptable interpretation and frankly, I don't know anyone, nor have I heard a recording of the solo that has flutter tounge on it. I remember reading a quote from a rock bass player Billy Sheehan (played for Talas, Steve Vai, Mr. Big) was was revered by bass players as an amazing player and innovator who said "You have to know the rules before you can break them".

I think the overarching question of how much of the interpretation is up to the player really depends on who you are, in what situation. I think some of the MOST important questions are why are you doing it? Does it fit the piece? Does it fit the conductors interpretation of the piece? Does it match some of the others solos in other sections? I think exploration and experimentation are good, I think it really helps you learn the music more if it is approached in a mature, well thought out manner.

At the end of the Orchestra Excerpts for tuba CD Gene Pokorny says "be imaginative, be inquisitive, be creative in ways that are motivated by the music and not by the ego"

Bill

Tubadork wrote:hmmm.....
I had heard that Gene Pokorny played a quote from Lohengrin in his American in Paris when he played a concert at Ravinia (not sure if it's 100% true). It seems that Gene Pokorny at Ravinia, O.K. he has tenure and probably a good relationship with the conductor, but even if not, he is still Gene Pokorny.

Young player (I'm guessing College?){only because you called it just Orchestra and called the conductor the director, but if I am wrong I'm sorry} who is playing in an educational environment under a conductor, who most likely has lots of experience taking some unconventional liberties might not be a good idea. FWIW even for me as a freelancer, if I was playing a gig and unless I had that tuba spot nailed down (tenure or for the smaller orchestras, just knowing that I'm their guy) I wouldn't really mess with it, because I want to get called back to play again, so I can pay my bills. I really wouldn't do it in an audition, because I would like to make the next round.

The educational system should really be teaching you not only how to be a good musician/ technician but also how to get and better yet KEEP a job, so if I were your instructor I would try to steer you toward an acceptable interpretation and frankly, I don't know anyone, nor have I heard a recording of the solo that has flutter tounge on it. I remember reading a quote from a rock bass player Billy Sheehan (played for Talas, Steve Vai, Mr. Big) was was revered by bass players as an amazing player and innovator who said "You have to know the rules before you can break them".

I think the overarching question of how much of the interpretation is up to the player really depends on who you are, in what situation. I think some of the MOST important questions are why are you doing it? Does it fit the piece? Does it fit the conductors interpretation of the piece? Does it match some of the others solos in other sections? I think exploration and experimentation are good, I think it really helps you learn the music more if it is approached in a mature, well thought out manner.

At the end of the Orchestra Excerpts for tuba CD Gene Pokorny says "be imaginative, be inquisitive, be creative in ways that are motivated by the music and not by the ego"

Bill

Graduate school actually, and I dont usually get too stressed over semantics.

Yes, I listened to the orchestral excerpts cd in prep for this solo. Trust me, I didn't take a lot of liberties with it beyond the little growl. (which my teacher agreed was not in bad taste) I was just a little frustrated with the maestro because he nitpicked and didnt tell me exactly what he wanted... which spawned this thought. I wasn't playing it the way I did just because I felt like it or thought it was cool, I really tried to take the feel of the other two solos around it and modify my solo so that it fit, but had its own "flavor."

I agree with a lot of what you said, don't get me wrong.

Its a tough position to be in when you can't figure out what someone wants and they just tell you they don't like what you're doing.

It also frustrates me a lot when people pre-judge a person's ability to play by what they look like (how old they appear or what they're wearing) I know this probably happens a LOT more than it should in the pro world too.

There are going to be dickhead *excuse my french* conductors everywhere you go, i suggest maybe getting a boxing bag and letting your steam off in a physical way. It might possibly be a better way than venting anger on a tuba forum.

This didn't seem to be venting anger. This seemed to be a guy (albeit a little pi***d off) asking some other musicians, pro and otherwise, if they had similar experiences or issues, and how to deal with them, which to my way of thinking, is one of the gems of a forum such as this.

Ally "rank amateur, never played for money but get lots of good info from y'all anyway and enjoy the heck out of playing again" House

is to keep the guy who signs the checks happy and to always make the guy that contracted you for the job look good. It's not about artistic license - it's about being employed and staying employed. For that, you need the help of others in the community. Do what the conductor wants - if there is a doubt about what he mumbled, go talk to him after the rehearsal or on the break. This will show him/her that you are concerned with their needs and wish to do things as they need to have them. Never assume that this will be your only contact, ever, with this conductor - you may be auditioning for his orchestra some day and you want him to remember you as caring about his personal requirements for the piece, not for blowing off his request.

How do you get a trombone player off your porch? Pay him for the pizza. Don't wind up like that.

Just my $0.02 from a lot of personal experience.

Roger

i have been in this type of situation also. if the communication across the ensemble is not working, then talk to the conductor after, before, or during a break. you and i might prefer more flexibility, but in the end he is driving the bus and controls the keys.

In similar situations, guest conductor or Music Director, I'll give the person one chance to express what they want, and then, if it still isn't right, I'd ask them to put it succinctly, or to tell me specifically after the rehearsal if that's possible.

Remind them that you're "no interpretive whiz, you're just the tuba player, and interpretation is THEIR department, especially in a school setting... ".

One, you never want to be responsible for wasting rehearsal time. You've got the whole orchestra there, the conductor only gets so much time, and it costs money.

Two. Communicating what they want IS what the conductor is supposed to do. If it's not clear to you, it's not clear to a lot of other people, and the responsibility is NOT on your side.

Three. Being at a rehearsal means that you have prepared the part, know it, and listened to other performances, if necessary (espescially at a school!). Regardless of how small it seems, anything marked solo should be familiar, with major performers and performances studied.

Four. Being conducted DOESN'T mean that you need to take grief. Insist that instructions be clear and concise. The performance is what matters here, not how appear to anyone else at the time. The best people that I've worked with have all asked "stupid" questions to be sure that they understood that they were providing what was required, even if they misunderstood the situation. You never worry about how your question sounds. Even if you've dropped the ball in 1 or 3.

The first orchestral gig I ever had was when I was still in school, and asked to sub in a pro Orchestra. We were playing American in Paris, too, and I was unprepared. I'd never even heard it, having pretty much been a little instrument major up to that point. After being similarly yelled at I just let my Blues experience take over, and got a lot of shuffles from the orchestra (did I do something bad!? ).

Just let this be part of your learning as I did, and regardless of the conductor (why is an orchestra the opposite of a bull?) don't let this happen to you again.

Adding something like a flutter tongue isn't really taking liberties, is it??



More like rewriting the part. Not really cool.

Similar, playing the Dies Irae in octaves. I know, the whole Pokorny story about researching, the urtext, etc, but again, that's Gene. The one time I played second on Fantastique with the local BrassBlowhard S.O., I was told we'd do the D.I. in octaves, not by the guest conductor but by the regular. The conductor neither acknowledged nor likely realized what was happening, he wasn't exactly a thoroughly confidence-instilling conductor. But, the parts aren't written in octaves, unless Gene did a new edition of the parts, and most conductors will want them done as written. If they can tell the difference, at least.

Added a flutter tongue, eh?

I remember doing low brass sectionals with Allen Kofsky and Jim DeSano. Not only could they tell you how to play the licks, but how Szell wanted it, or Boulez, or Bernstein, or Solti, or, or, or... frequently, the same lick sounded completely different from one conductor's preference to another.

That tells me, esp in a professional situation but even moreso in a school environment, the conductor has the control. Don't screw around, or as it's been aptly put, you may not find yourself with another sub gig there, and you just might end up auditioning for the guy sometime. It's his show, not yours.

Okay, my opinion really means squat in this situation but here's my $.02...

I'm a big fan of playing music the way it was originally written and it was written that way for a reason. In my former band in CA, the associate director would rearrange songs for one reason or another. I'm talking about the entire song. What was wrong with the original version? Who knows but it kept him busy! My main beef was that his bass lines would have been better played by an electric bass rather than tubas. Oh well...

I think the term, "Solo" is being misused. The tuba "solo" in American in Paris, is more of a highlight of the tuba rather than a solo where the band stops and the tuba player rips into a triple tongued, roller coaster solo... No jazz solos!

In other words, there is a time & place for that type of performance. An American in Paris, is not the right time... And like everyone else said, communication is key for almost every situation...


Tim

eupher61 wrote:It's his show, not yours.

When you buy a CD it is the conductor's name on the cover. It is his vision, it is his game. Play your solo recital the way you want... play the orchestral concert the way he wants.

This is very important to me as a sometimes conductor, sometimes instrumental performer. Know your role and play within it.

I can remember one orchestra I played for as a three-month sub. I was just a young guy. The regular tuba player, who was a dear friend of mine, suggested I take his place because I could take all the drivel the conductor said and still play well (although, if you looked into my eyes, you could see tears.) From the very beginning the conductor kept saying everything I was doing was wrong. And the members of the orchestra then realized, that he didn't have a problem with the regular tuba player (whom he also ridiculed), he had a ton of other personal problems. We were rehearsing the third movement of Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony, which doesn't have a tuba part. I didn't even stay in the room. I went outside, had a Coke, went to the bathroom, rinsed out my mouth, and came back to my seat to see the conductor with his head buried in the score, murmuring, "You're slowing things down, Tuba!"

As far as artistic license, if you ever listen to symphony orchestra recordings from about 70 years ago, you will notice many of the pieces we think of as being a certain way, in strict time, had a lot of liberties taken by the conductors. Otto Klemperer (Werner's dad) was notorious for his rubatos. Probably the strictest time came from Arturo Toscannini, but he had the personality of that conductor I worked with when I was 21 and 22!

Tuba, your post is slowing us down!