TubeNet

Hey folks,

Is there any real reason that bell front horns seem to be out of fashion?

When I was younger, I tended to look down my nose at them, but have since come to "see the light"! I have discovered how cool that "direct" sound can be, from an audience's point of view.

What are your thoughts?

So Bloke,
You seem to be saying that there are several situations where the recording bell is advantageous. I would add one more scenario: playing indoors, on a stage that has "fly space" for scenery, which can tend to trap your sound.

Since you didn't have a choice titled 'when it's appropriate'... I checked 'all of the time'.

The truth is, I use a bell-front horn A LOT! Of course, there are places where I wouldn't dream of it... like church gigs and orchestra gigs. The director of the brass band I play with won't allow forward bells because he says they 'are too in his face'.

- Bell-front tubas work well in venues where the ceiling is less than 15'.
- Bell-front tubas work well outside.

A lot here depends on the player. Someone who constantly plays with an 'edgy' sound would be a real pain in the rear to have to sit in front of.

Check out the website for the 20J's at Jacksonville State University!
http://20j.marchingsoutherners.org/home.htm

For 15 years all I had was a Conn 20J. No choice but to have a recording bell. No one complained. Six months ago I picked up a Conn 21J. The one group I'm in where the director would have noticed, didn't seem to.

I would aggree that you hear yourself quite differently with the bell up, of course my little house only has 7 1/2 foot ceilings, so the sound isn't always the greatest anyway.

The biggest difference I've noticed has nothing to do with sound, and everything to do with convienence. The bell up can stand up by itself, while the recording bell always needed to be standing in a corner, hoping that my young son wouldn't knock it over!

As for being out of favor, MHO: I doubt any manufactuer is looking to make removable bells much anymore, and if the recording bell doesn't come off I'd think the case would be huge.

Just my "taste and hearing",
Rob

Jedi Master wrote:Is there any real reason that bell front horns seem to be out of fashion?

Mostly because, with modern times, recordings can now be made satisfactorily using string basses and upright-bell tubas.



All kidding aside, there was a short article published in the February, 1974 Instrumentalist by Ronald Sellers that discusses the subject. Basically, it boils down to the extreme directionality of the bell-front, as well as its uncanny ability to take those fluffed attacks and the sound of water in your slides and hold them up for all to enjoy.

Every serious brass player would do themselves a great service if they'd pick up a copy of the Instrumentalist "Brass Anthology". For $23, it's an incredible resource and an insight into more than 50 years of thought by some very notable artists:

http://www.instrumentalistmagazine.com/ ... hology.htm

I would be interested to hear the difference of bell-front tubas because I have never heard one in the UK. They seem to be a specific US idea - I wonder why?

Sorry for repeating myself, but a post I made earlier expresses what I'd just write down again anyway. In an attempt to discourage tubaplayers from cutting perfectly good recording bells to make uprights, I wrote the following;

"Please, gentlemen, lets not cut the bells on these old beautiful historical tubas. Please. (As well one risks damaging what might have been a fine bell.)

The nice thing about these bells is that you can change the positioning. If its a quirky hall (or a small venue), changing the direction of your sound can be to your advantage.

I myself hold my tuba as many other players do; at an 80% angle. This means that with an upright bell ones sound is going upwards, but at an 80% angle. If I turn my bell front to the side it also goes up at an 80% angle, all be it in the other direction than the rest of the horn. But, up is up.

Looks a bit funky, but hey, it ain't no beauty pageant."


The way I see it, my tuba's a bell-front, a bell-up, or a bell half-up, depending on what I need. I must say that the bell-front position wins for me with jazz groups and/or pop bands where all the horn playes have their bells facing the audience anyway. And in low roof venues its a life saver.

-Patrick

Neptune wrote:I would be interested to hear the difference of bell-front tubas because I have never heard one in the UK. They seem to be a specific US idea - I wonder why?

That's very strange, considering that I've got a bell-front Besson BBb hanging on my shop wall. I've also seen BF Besson Eb tubas.

Chuck(G) wrote:

Neptune wrote:I would be interested to hear the difference of bell-front tubas because I have never heard one in the UK. They seem to be a specific US idea - I wonder why?

That's very strange, considering that I've got a bell-front Besson BBb hanging on my shop wall. I've also seen BF Besson Eb tubas.

I don't believe that it was advanced that they weren't made (maybe for the US market, as a matter of fact... ), just that there didn't seem to be any in the UK!

Chuck(G) wrote:That's very strange, considering that I've got a bell-front Besson BBb hanging on my shop wall. I've also seen BF Besson Eb tubas.

They are not used over here - at least in recent times.

I know there used to be recording bell tubas (for recording purposes as Wade well explained), but more modern instruments have long since replaced - at least in all the bands I have heard.

GREAT-OUT-OF-DOORS...or if you need to get the sound out more direct. I very rarely use mine except outside with a mid to large ensemble.....because as Bloke noted, it is more difficult to hear myself....as I'm much more used to a bell-up sound. I'm sure if I used it more, I'd get the hang of it, but most of my "work" is with smaller groups (trio to sextet).

Neptune wrote:I know there used to be recording bell tubas (for recording purposes as Wade well explained), but more modern instruments have long since replaced - at least in all the bands I have heard.

The one in my shop dates from the mid 1960's. I wonder if they were made for export-only. It's actually a pretty good player.

the elephant wrote:The tubas chosen for this duty were bell-front horns. In the days of wax cylinder recordings, each was made individually, and you had to play very loudly or be very close to the machines. A large "clump" of machines were packed together and a cut down orchestra were placed as close as possible to the victrola horns (which were the microphone).

Wade, I don't know where this got started, but Mr. Edison was quite capable of repoducing a single Amberol cylinder almost from the very beginning. Multiple masters may have been desirable, but the consumer didn't purchase a master recording.

No, the use of the tuba in place of string bass occurs for two reasons. The first is that the recording horns used are extremely directional (this is something that Edison battled with well into the 1920's, even building a 125-foot long brass recording horn). Off-axis sounds were simply not picked up. The second is that the mechanical recording equipment was not terribly sensitive to low frequencies and the double-bass was entirely too quiet.

Using lots of double-basses and many separate horns was out of the question, as the number of horns multiplied, the sound would become more muddled. So groups had to be kept small.

Here's some great information on this:

http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/14803
http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/15231

Here's a program that demonstrates how the sound of even an upright-bell tuba disappears:

http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/15373

I think bell front tubas would be great for most hs bands that only have one or two tuba players. It would definitely help their sound be heard. Also for playing outdoors they are great. i want to get an old King someday with the forward bell. As was mentioned earlier you can turn the bell so it is not facing directly at the conductor also.

ken k

One advantage that bell-front tubas have is the fact that you can't stand them up; you have to lay the tuba down flat on the floor (preferably under a table) when it is not in use. Because they can't fall over from that position they tend to last much longer in schools than upright-bell tubas. Kids tend to get hasty when stashing an upright-bell tuba after band practice; the bells become flattened in a year or less. But I have seen recording-bell tubas that lasted 20 or 30 years in a high school without serious damage.
I still put the original recording bell back onto my Martin for outdoor band concerts.

So! It appears that more people are using recording bell tubas, much more often than I had previously thought! As of this moment (Sun. 11:55 pm), 77% of the people who have responded, appear to use them, at least in some musical situations!

That is great to hear! Long live the bell-front horns!!!

There is a 3-valve Besson non-comp in the back of the storeroom at the university community band I play in. Every so often someone gets it out to try it once. Then in spite of the relatively good tone, the unwieldiness gets the better of them and the two cases go straight back to the back of the storeroom.

bloke wrote:Surely not ALL of these Besson/B&H BBb monstrosities (seen everywhere around here in the dungeons of old band halls) left England.

You would think so, but I have just not come across any. Maybe if any other British Tubeneter knows, they can speak up

However, remember brass bands dominate brass playing in the UK and bell fronts have never been part of the brass band scene.

This topic reminds me of the 1994 National Youth Band of Wales Course , directed by Prof Edward Gregson , Peter Denton had just sold a miraphone tuba and bought a 20 inch belled Conn 4v Bb Tuba , a real monster...so during the rehersal all 4 Bb players ( was a double band of 50 plus players) had a go at different points in the rehersal , what a mega instrument very direct , massive and not very comfortable to hold , but the clincher was seeing the shock in prof Gregson's face as Matt Routley ( tuba player with the Black Dyke Band) punched some notes in a March called Washington D.C. by Brian Kelly..shock is an understatement.

Jedi Master wrote:So! It appears that more people are using recording bell tubas, much more often than I had previously thought!

Here's the link to a previous poll on the same subject, with different voting options:

viewtopic.php?t=8795&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0