Sousaphones vintage, what do I have?

Kenton · Post by **Kenton** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:03 am

I was just asked to try to sell some sousaphones (probably on eBay) that have long been in storage.

But I would like to know what I have, rather than go at this blind. They all need some work, but are all close to playable. Going by the serial numbers, I THINK they are a 1926 Conn four valve 40K, a 1952 Conn 20K Artist, and a 1939 King small 3/4? BBb not Eb.

Also a York Eb tuba, that appears to be pre-1920.

I will probably keep the tuba and one of the sousaphones. So, I would be interested in any recommendations.

Thanks

kms

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:49 am

A 20K is the easiest to identify. It will have short action valves, with oval valve ports. To my knowledge the 20K is the only sousaphone made with those valves. Conn also put the model number of the bell collar for a time. If you are lucky you can find the model number there. A 4 valve BBb Conn sousaphone with standard stroke valves and a 0.734" bore is most likely a 40K.

What any of them would sell for is a more difficult question to answer. A used 20K in overhauled condition generally sells between $2000 - $3500 at a store. On ebay it would probably sell for between $1000 - $2000, depending on condition and the phase of the moon, but I have seen these sell for as little as $400.

A 40K probably has a smaller potential set of buyers because it wouldn't be something that a high school or college would typically want. It's really too large to be used for marching by anyone but a body builder. These show up on ebay rarely and have sold for from $600 to $3200, depending on condition.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:21 am

As for the facts Lew is right.

As for recommendations about what to keep:

The respective technical state of the different instruments is a main factor in the selection.

That aside the 40K has the potentials to be the most interesting of the sousaphones.

These old Conns were made of heavier sheet brass than the ones from around WWII and later. That gives them a very deep and full sound.

If your 40K has a 24" bell then there is a great chance, that it does not have the less desirable sousaphone afterglow (called "ring" by some).

Unlike other sousas the 40K's were not made primarily as marching instruments. They are much too heavy for that purpose. They were rather made to act as bass instruments in the dance bands in the era before electrical sound amplification.

One very frequent contributor has expressed to this forum, that he considers the great US made concert tubas made until around 1970 to be inspired by the large old sousaphones. The 40K is not only a great sousaphone. It is a great tuba by almost any standard.

If you need an instrument for marching, then the 20K would be the most relevant one. This model is still very much asked for and the output of new ones is quite low.

The reporting on the 40K comes from owning one. The lines on the 20K refers to the facts of the market today. There are divided opinions on this instrument model, but I have no first hand experience with it, so I will let others express these opinions.

My brass instruments' galleries hold quite a bit of documentation on Conn (and on several other makers). You will find the index via my signature lines below here.

These excerpts from the index only give a few relevant links:

Conn bass instrumentsâ€™ catalogue from December 1934. Thanks to the generosity of Rob Perelli-Minetti the YMPP project can present scans of a December 1934 Conn bass instruments brochure. 14 pages in B/W (1590K):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... ochure.pdf

Thumbnails of a 1927 Conn 40K sousaphone with 4 piston valves. Varying stages of a renovation process are shown:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... der=&.done

Thumbnails(-s) of a slightly older Conn 40K sousaphone with 4 piston valves:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... aphone.jpg

Thumbnails of an even older Conn 40K sousaphone with 4 piston valves:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... +4+pistons

Conn background brasses (baritones, tubas, sousaphones). Pages from a circa 1968 catalogue. (907KB):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... ground.pdf

Thumbnails:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... a+1968+cat

Klaus

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:11 am

Lew wrote:A 20K is the easiest to identify. It will have short action valves, with oval valve ports. To my knowledge the 20K is the only sousaphone made with those valves. .

Lew, I could be mistaken, but the short-action valves didn't appear on Conns until the 1960's.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:24 am

The short stroke, off-set pistons are described already in the 1934 brochure linked to in my previous posting above here.

Klaus

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:52 am

I acquired that 1934 Conn catalog when I bought a Conn 22J from Dillon music, who had acquired it from a fellow in his 80s who had been given it new when he was in high school. It came with a receipt for the 22J showing that it had been purchased in 1936. The 22J is the front action version of a 20J, with short action valves. I sold the horn when I was going through some financial difficulties, but here's a link to a photo of it.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn22J1934image.html

Kenton · Post by **Kenton** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:33 pm

I want to thank all for the good information. I have have had several ask for pictures of the 40k, so I quickly slapped together this WEB page. I have only given the horn a cursor inspection, but have detailed what I found.

I will get pictures up of the others soon.

http://www.punxypa.com/sousas

Thanks

kms

Kenton · Post by **Kenton** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:46 am

OK, the other horns have been photographed.

They are all accessed in the same place.

http://www.punxypa.com/sousas

kms

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:03 am

I certainly like the photos! And I would love to be allowed to upload them to my brass galleries.

It is very important, that the bells are seen in a sort of blueprint position.

My involvement with the 40K model is well known, so I have been engaged in a supplementary private correspondence.

My laziness in typing dictates me to quote from one of my own mails specifically concerning the application of short stroke valves. A few changes have been entered to compensate for the missing context:

"These valves (short stroke) were there for the upright tubas in 1934 according to the brochure from December of that year. But I don't remember seeing them used on the sousas.

The photos of the presented 20K from the original poster display normal long stroke valves on a body extremely similar to the one of the 40K. From what I have seen from photos, I tend to think that the back bow (of the 20K) up to the bell has a slightly smaller volume than has the coresponding 40K bow.

The photos of the 40K in a convincing way show the immense bell throat and the very impressive dimensions of the bell knee (which I like so much with my own 40K).

The referred-to-20K may be a 38K from the last half of the 1930-ies."

As for the question of what to keep from the collection:

The 40K will need some costly valve work, but I estimate, that this can be done.

The 40K is a heavy devil to work with also in repair shops. The backs of Joe Sellmansberger of Memphis and of Lee Stofer of the greater Atlanta area will hate me for recommending shop types like theirs. Oberloh of Washington state is a bigger outfit also dedicated to very thorough jobs with old instruments.

My main point is, that the bodies of the 40K as well as of the one I consider being a 38K are of a quality rarely, if ever, made today. If you cannot carry the restoration costs, then you should make sure, that these fine instruments end up with owners, who will be able to finance their being brought back to their original state.

Thrashing them on eBay or via a garage sale wouldn't pay these fine samples of the (bygone some will say) US tradition of fine low brasses the sufficient level of respect.

I find myself being a quite experienced buyer on the eBay marketplace and wouldn't miss it. But like the deli section in my local supermarket is a matter of squeezing money out of animal fats, which should have been thrashed for candle production, then eBay is a highly refined form of garbage recycling. Including products, which started out being garbage.

Klaus

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:48 pm

As Klaus mentions, the "20K" is definitely not a 20K. You can tell because it has long stroke valves. Short stroke valves are very distinctive, and are offset in the valve cap. It looks like it is most likely a 38K. It is the same as a 20K in most ways, except for the short action valves. This reduces its value somewhat. I'd put it's selling value on ebay in its current condition at between $500 - $1200.

The King looks like their standard BBb sousaphone. I believe the model number was 1250, although the later model 2350 was essentially the same. I have one of these that I paid $400 for on ebay in similar condition, but I have seen them sell in this condition for close to $1000. The most likely max for this would be $800 on ebay, although the case would add some value.

The 40K is the most unusual or rare piece of the 3, and if cleaned up and repaired should be a very good player. If you were looking for something to play outdoors with a large group, the 40K could be a good choice. I wouldn't suggest keeping it to march with.

The other 2 are both good sousaphones, again if in working condition. I like the King for marching because it is a little lighter.

pjv · Post by **pjv** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:13 am

If you're serious about selling the sousaphones to players, than it would be thoughtful to take into consideration what they need to know. Basically, just like a trombone, tubing can be repaired, but the valves (like a trombone slide) is can be the difference between restorable or not-from a players perspective. All valves should move from top to bottom reasonably well. As a bass-boneist you've got an idea about this. The fourth valve is missing its valve stem, but when you remove the valve cap can you push the valve down? Does it come back? Although a good repairman can do alot to a messed up valve, a bent valve is, as far as I know, unrepairable. Quite often, if a valve cap is stuck, a young player might try to loosen it with a wrench. This can seriously bend the valve caseing, but also the valve. The 20k is very common and its parts are replaceble. The 40k is a head-ache, I would think. For this reason, a look through the school band "extra-parts" box (shelf or drawer, where ever they might keep left-over instrument parts) would be a good idea. If the neck, bits, valve stem and/or caps are present it always helpful.
I think that taking all the instruments to a good repairman should make your job easier. They can at least examen the goods and give you a better idea as to whats repairable or not and what the intruments could be sold for. I think alot of repairs have to be done, but I'm not a specialist, just a player.
Having lookeed at the pics the other sous is deffinatly not a 20k. Possably a 32k. Check the bell ring. I think all 1950's Conns were well marked.
I hope this helps, and good luck.