Sharp Conn 14K

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:41 am

In another thread (viewtopic.php?t=14998&highlight=) I got good advice from many Tubenetters regarding buying a sousaphone, and I've been playing a 14K Conn for the past half year or so. When I started playing it it wasn't easy to play in tune, but I got much better at it with time and practice. I'm very pleased with the overall sound and the different sound qualities I can get from it.
After playing it for a while I see some major tuning problems that I can't get around and would like some advice about:
* The instrument is sharp - I need to get almost all my tuning slide to be in tune with other instruments. This means the tuning slide is about 10 cm. out, 20 cm. of pipe! I'm sure this doesn't do good to the overall tuning of the sousa.
* C an B in the staff, fingered 1 and 12, are flat. Using alternate fingering 13 and 123 with 3'rd valves tuning slide about 4.5 cm. out gets a better tuning but it's flexible and I find it hard to play these notes consistently. This is also a problem with C and B under the staff.
Lately my teacher suggested I take it to a repairman who'd tinker with it, maybe add some pipe.
What do you think?

Here's some useful info:
It's a '69 made at Elkhart that was completely dedented, cleaned and lacquered by Borodi Instruments. I use two bits with it and a PT -50+ mouthpiece.

And some pictures:

(Photos by Noga Cohen-Alloro)

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:19 am

I think I see the problem. You are blowing into a water bottle and the sousaphone doesn't even have a neck. This will cause pitch problems every time.

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:24 am

Now I see. I knew something was wrong. Would a bigger bottle make a difference?

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:31 am

Udi wrote:Now I see. I knew something was wrong. Would a bigger bottle make a difference?

I'll have to do some more research and get back to on that one. Of course, someone in the freak jury can probably weigh in on that.

In actuality, I don't really know what the problem is. Having it thoroughly checked would probably be a good starting point. Perhaps some kind of foreign object or something has been altered by a previous owner. A good repairman might at least have a clue. I don't.

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:12 am

Scooby - I actually am a CC player, and my teacher suggested your exact theory to me when I started playing the BBb sousa. I think this is a deeper problem, but I'll try your idea.
Bloke - that's an interesting idea. I looked at some 14k photos and they seem to have the same length tuning slide I have on mine.
the pictures I've found are on these pages:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn14K1956image.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... otohosting
I think this is a 14k too:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CONN-SOUSAPHONE-LAC ... dZViewItem

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:58 pm

The Conn/Cavalier souzy I sometimes play is an ancestor to a current 14k. It has similar pitch problems that are inherent to all souzys, and for that matter all brass instruments.

1) Make sure the open notes BBb, F and Bb play in tune. Then you have somewhere to go. If they don't, have the horn checked for obstructions and leaks and the correct neck, two bits, and tuning slide.

2) Once that is sorted out, and there are no other obstructions or leaks in the horn, it should play pretty well. Since you are used to the intonation of a CC here's what to do:

3) Have your tech take loose the upper loop of the 1st valve tubing that sits next to your left hand and fit tubing to it to make a slide out of it. Since a couple of ferrules may need to be fitted which will add @ 5/8 inch to its overall length per leg, you may need to have the other end of the slide where the water key is shortened. Then you have a slide you can pull to get 12 G's and D's into perfect tune by pulling @ 1/2 to 3/4 inch, and 1-3 C and low F in tune by pulling @ 1 to 2 inches, depending on where you set your 3rd valve slide to tune up 23 Db and Gb, or split the difference to have 3 as an alternate fingering and lip accordingly. And if you are really picky, you can have it shortened an extra 1/2 to 5/8 inch to be able to push for 1st valve 2nd space C like you do on your CC tuba for 1st valve middle line D.

With this modification, and the ability of most 14k's to play great false pedal tones low Eb open, D 2 and Db 1, it's one of the most fun instruments to play in the souzy/tuba pantheon.

I actually prefer the ones with a 24 inch bell, as they are so much easier to manuever, especially through doorways, and as you mentioned, you can get a variety of tones through them, especially a more robust, projecting tone with a rounded cup like a Kelly 18 or a Gieb, and a more broad, tubesque tone with a Helleberg style deep funnel cup, and intonation doesn't seem to be affected by choice of mouthpiece.

If another guy in Shrine band didn't like it so much that he plays it now more regularly than I do, since I have two tubas of my own and he doesn't, I'd still play it more often, especially for outdoor gigs.

Now, if I could only find a 14k bugle with 24 inch bell that needs a valveset, and find a 20k short stroke offset valveset to fit to it....

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:04 pm

Hey...

Maybe it doesn't play in tune but it's sure nice to see you playing a sousaphone rather than your upright for standing gigs!!!

Tim

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:22 pm

I can't completely tell from the photos, but do you have the correct mouthpipe neck? There should be the proper neck and one or two tuning bits. Your photo seems to show something that doesn't look like the traditional sousaphone mouthpipe and three bits. It just doesn't look right.

I play my battered old 14K with a newish neck and one tuning bit, and have no trouble playing it in tune with the main slide a reasonable half-inch out. But I'm a Bb player, and I tend flat if anything.

Rick "thinking the flat first-valve C is normal" Denney

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:56 pm

Thank you all for your feedback. iiipopes, that's an incredibly informative and useful post!

iiipopes wrote: 1) Make sure the open notes BBb, F and Bb play in tune. Then you have somewhere to go.

Check.

iiipopes wrote: If they don't, have the horn checked for obstructions and leaks and the correct neck, two bits, and tuning slide.

tubop wrote: It looks like one bit is missing... that causes intonation problems yes?

I was using one bit, and started using two to overcome tuning problems. Didn't make a big difference.

iiipopes wrote: 3) Have your tech take loose the upper loop of the 1st valve tubing that sits next to your left hand and fit tubing to it to make a slide out of it...

I think I may just do that.

With this modification, and the ability of most 14k's to play great false pedal tones...

I've noticed those great false tones and enjoy them a lot.

trseaman wrote: Maybe it doesn't play in tune but it's sure nice to see you playing a sousaphone rather than your upright for standing gigs!!!

I admit it's nicer for me too

bloke wrote:Regardless of the cause, longer main tuning slide outside slide tubes will solve any overall sharpness issue, and relative intonation will not be effected at all.

Now that's weird, how can relative intonation be uneffected? I'd really like to understand that better. Anyway, is that really better than pulling the same amount of tuning slide?

Rick Denney wrote:I can't completely tell from the photos, but do you have the correct mouthpipe neck?

I think it's the right leadpipe. Is this clear enough to identify the leadpipe? (I was still using one bit):

Click here for full size:
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=315245501&size=l
Couldn't find a photo of a 14k leadpipe on the net to compare with. Know of any?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:02 pm

Looks like the right 'pipe... and it SHOULD be two bits; not using one is like having the tuning slide shoved in too far.

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:08 am

bloke wrote: you can rearrange your neck and bits to approach you from your LEFT (rather than from your right) ... yo' haid the thu bale ... you will also notice that thu bale will be at more of a perpendicular angle to thu flowuh.

As I said I'm using two bits now, so the bell position already improved. I'll try your approach and see how it feels.
You know, english not being my mother tongue it took me a while to decipher that. Is that southern accent?

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:03 pm

Udi wrote:I think it's the right leadpipe. Is this clear enough to identify the leadpipe? (I was still using one bit):

No need for a picture--that's the correct neck. And I play mine with one bit, too. If I use two bits, I have to angle my neck backwards to make room. The 14K is a bit smaller than some sousaphones and two bits were one too many to fit me.

Since I'm at home (I wasn't when writing my previous post), I picked up the old 14K and tooted around on it for a few minutes. Once I was warmed up, I checked it and the instrument was dead in tune everywhere except for the C on the staff, which was predictably flat.

As I was putting it back in its resting place, I noticed that the main slide was extended about 2-5/8", or about 6.7 centimeters. So, I have to correct my earlier recollection--probably from when I first got the instrument and was trying to get comfortable with two bits. That's still a little over an inch further in that yours, but as I said I tend flat.

Mine might also be a bit leaky here and there, though I'm fighting the flu right now so it may have been me who was a bit leaky.

Rick "not happy with anything but the intonation from this mornings play test" Denney

Udi · Post by **Udi** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:39 pm

Rick Denney wrote:I picked up the old 14K and tooted around on it for a few minutes...

Thanks for thinking about my question and checking this for me. TubeNet is a great place with lovely people!

Rick Denney wrote: Mine might also be a bit leaky here and there

As I was cleaning my souzy from a dusty gig I played yesterday I checked the valves sealing by pulling the tuning slides out without depressing the valves. Instead of that lovely "pop" sound I heard air flowing in, though they did gently poof when they got free. How do you repair this and check for other leaks? Is this one of those "it's a sousaphone" cases too?

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:23 am

Udi wrote:As I was cleaning my souzy from a dusty gig I played yesterday I checked the valves sealing by pulling the tuning slides out without depressing the valves. Instead of that lovely "pop" sound I heard air flowing in, though they did gently poof when they got free. How do you repair this and check for other leaks? Is this one of those "it's a sousaphone" cases too?

No, valves should fit well even on sousaphones.

Mine were pretty dry, which didn't help. The only way to really know if the valves are causing a problem is to use a heavy oil, like motor oil. The valves won't work well, of course, but it will seal them up good. Then test the intonation. If there's no difference, then clean out the motor oil and replace with regular valve oil. You might try Hetmans Classic which is a bit thicker and designed for older instruments with worn valves.

But I doubt that's your problem. Leaky valves usually cause the instrument to tend flat, not sharp, in my experience.

Rick "with a collection of leaks at the moment" Denney

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:33 pm

Between my two 14K sousas and a 36K (plastic version with the same valve section)... and a couple of slides in my junkbox... none of them are the same length! I've found the same thing is true with the 2XJ tubas.