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Sumner Erickson played an HB-50 in the Pittsburgh symphony. He sounded great on it. I have played on that horn during a lesson once and I really liked it. I am sure you are going to be at the conference on friday and he will to. Ask him about it, maybe he'll even be playing a solo on it, so you my even get to hear it up close. I thought Yutaka played one as well?

Now the HB-50 is a great horn but, what type of playing are you going to be mainly doing? If you're walking into a world class orchestra after you finish school then that horn would suit you well. But if you are going to be doing something else i.e. free-lance, grad school like 99% of the tuba world, you'd be better off with a 4/4,5/4 CC and a F. Need to be able to fit in any playing situation.

My $.02 worth

It's a loan, right? Meaning it's going to take a piece of your hide in some way to pay it back eventually.

Just getting a Yorkbrunner because it's big and shiny and expensive, it seems to me, isn't enough of a reason to buy one. I'm with the last poster--I'd buy one or two medium-priced tubas to fit my needs (assuming that said needs include a new tuba or two) and pay down the principal or put something in the bank with whatever's left over.

Now, if you win the state lottery, you can ignore whatever I said and buy yourself a solid gold tuba.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/infaq.html

JustinLerma wrote:Sumner Erickson played an HB-50 in the Pittsburgh symphony. He sounded great on it. I have played on that horn during a lesson once and I really liked it. I am sure you are going to be at the conference on friday and he will to. Ask him about it, maybe he'll even be playing a solo on it, so you my even get to hear it up close. I thought Yutaka played one as well?

I alwyas thought Sumner plaed an HB-6(HBS-293) as his big horn? Whatever it was, it rocked.

Juan.J.Rodriguez wrote:Any thoughts, personal experiences, or opinions on the HB-50.

I'm a college undergrad that managed to pull out a hefty loan. With this budget I can afford to purchase a CC and an F tuba. Why not go all out?

I did the same sort of thing when I first got my job. Bought a Yorkbrunner and expected great things. I eventually sold it after years of fighting with it and frankly not having opportunities enough to use it. Most jobs need a smaller horn anyway.

I sold it and bought a 4/4 CC and have never been happier with a horn. Plays in tune, is relatively easy, easier to hold and carry. doesn't suck the lungs dry.

For me the Yorkbrunner was an SUV when I really needed a full sized car. The Yorkbrunner scored personal ego points but in the end was not the right horn for the job and actually was a hindrance for me.

Ah the Yorkbrunner...


(I just shined it last night for a Passover performance)

I was a junior at UCLA when I knew in my discussions with Tommy Johnson that I needed a bigger horn. I was playing on a wonderful Mirafone 185 CC at the time, but Tommy informed me that with the trend in orchestral auditions (this was in 1993) I would never win on a pee-shooter like the 185.

I was gigging a lot at the time, and thanks to a full scholarship at UCLA and the blessing of a past grandparent, I had enough money to invest in a new (even a Swiss-made) tuba.

Tommy had a lot of fun coaching me in finding a new horn. Custom Music sent me a Yokbrunner to try and I spent a Sunday at Tommy's testing it against a (at that time prototype) Mel Colburson 6/4, Tommy's 188, and I think he also had his 190 monster at the time (but for some reason I don't remember trying that one).

We all agreed that I sounded best on the Yorkbrunner, so I ordered one.

The particular horn I got turned out to be one of the last 100% handmade ones, as they began machining parts soon after. The one I received played better that any I had tried before or since. I would guess that the HB-50s of today are a little more consistent. I was blessed in getting mine, and many have told me who have tried it that it is by far the best Yorkbrunner they've tried.

What an I getting at here?

The 6/4 tuba is made for playing in a big ensemble. As it turns out, I became a composer and occasional studio player and have never really NEEDED such a large horn in my career.

Don't get me wrong. I love my Yorkbrunner! No tuba I have ever tried has sounded so warm and beautiful, and mine plays very well in tune too. But this past weekend when I tried the Gronitz PCM, I felt the nimbleness that a HUGE horn doesn't quite have. In recording with the Yorkbrunner I have to have the mic up real high in the air, as the sound is so broad and fat. A sharper, crisper sound it better for recording and I know a 4/4 tuba would suit my needs better.

I think of selling my Yorkbrunner and getting a 4/4 tuba all the time. How was I supposed to know back in college that I would be called by God to observe the Sabbath and could not in true faith ever work in a full time orchestra again (unless perhaps one in Israel opens up). I was so sure that I would get into a major orchestra and have a full, tenure career there. What arrogance too! Winning a job like that is one of the most difficult things in all of music. Just ask somebody like Alan Baer who has paid his dues and then some.

But then I pick up this monster BAT and play the beautiful music through that huge bell and I can't put it down. I know that mine is one-of-a-kind and no other Yorkbrunner or 6/4 tuba quite measures up, so I can never bring myself to sell it. I can't imagine not having such a wonderful instrument, and also feel an emotional attachment, as it has been with me through many trying times.

If I were you I'd buy a great 4/4 or 5/4 instrument and spend the extra $$$ on your F tuba and perhaps a tenor horn, cimbasso, or bass trombone as well. If you get good enough to be that 1/100 player who can actually win a symphony job, then you can reevaluate your situation and think about getting a BAT to help with the audition.

Whatever you do, try out as many horns as you can before you buy. They are all different, just like all of us as human beings are different, and some fit who we are, and some don't.

I wish you all the best.

-DK

You should get the Yamaha York if you want "all-out." Since the HB-50 is no longer considered the coolest, you might consider the Nirschl York as an alternative, although it only costs about 2/3 of a Yamaha York.

The HB-50 is nice, but it's only the enlarged version of the 4/4 piston CC's, not better per se.

JustinLerma wrote:Sumner Erickson played an HB-50 in the Pittsburgh symphony. He sounded great on it. I have played on that horn during a lesson once and I really liked it. I am sure you are going to be at the conference on friday and he will to. Ask him about it, maybe he'll even be playing a solo on it, so you my even get to hear it up close. I thought Yutaka played one as well?

The tuba in question is the 6/4 mode with 4 pistons and 1 rotary. I was under the impression that Sumner plays the HB-6 (5/4, 5 rotary) CC. Did he change?

Quote:
"So this is my question, should I dish out $14,000+ for the nirschl, or keep shopping around."

Keep looking. I don't know how many tubas you have tried, but so far I only identify 3. Make sure you try the PT-606P - it costs thousands less than the WN-15 and objectively if not better, at least as good as the WN-15.

Playing horns this size has always felt a lot like hitting a tiny nail with a sledge hammer, throwing a pair of dice down a hallway, and wrestling a bear.


If you are looking to play loud, have a huge sound, cover up a "big kid" ensemble... get one. Personally, the only thing they do for me is:

1. make it harder to play in tune.
2. take clarity out of my playing.
3. make a lot of articulations and expression difficulty

We all have our personal preferences, and this is mine.


One of these days when I roll lucky on the penny slots in tunica (REALLY LUCKY), or win powerball I'll get one just to hold and tote around to impress. They are the epitome of what you envision when you think Tuba... now if I could just play them like that.


(who spent a horrible two years of his life, at the mercy of a giant holton--- pretty horn, bad for me to play--- just like the two of these HB's i've played)

PLEASE!!
Don't just "buy a Yorkbrunner" to bet the name; buy a GREAT horn, REGARDLESS of what the name is, the "size" is, or the "fad" is. The proof is when you pick "that horn" up and play, you are HAPPY with the way you sound (and dare I say... FEEL) on that horn. If you KNOW you want a 6/4ish thing, try as many different ones as you can, but consider trying other _/4s as well.

I have played some GREAT PT6s and PT6Ps, but I have also played some "not so good ones". There are other good horns out there in 4/4, 5/4 and 6/4 land, but choose for what you think you need NOW, and if you need to change later, deal with that then.

Scream in agony, if you are confused...
but happy hunting!

CJH

It sounds like any new professional level horn is going to be much better than what you are playing on. Also, don't count out used instruments. My conn 56j is used but I am absolutely in love with it. Best of luck in your search.

i kinda know what you're going through. I'm a freshman in college and i'm looking to upgrade to a larger horn. but here is my situation:
i play on a PT20-PS (i'll talk about that in a minute) and im looking into buying an F for quintet, gigs and solo literature. after i get the F i'll upgrade to a larger CC as my main AXE for orchestra and wind ensemble. now some insight on my PT. the horn itself is large for a 4/4 in sound but sized just right for the classification. with the bell flare and size it projects better than any other 4/4 that i've ever played it against (HB-21, PT606, anything Miraphone except for the 1292 which was similar, etc.) but it's never too heavy to bring into a small ensemble like a quintet or brass band. the horn is an AMAZING all around horn. i'm buying the F for higher faster solo and quintet literature (wow, i sound like a trumpet ) i played on a Yorkbrunner at TMEA and, yes, it was impressive but nothing a college student would really ever need. it had great sound and projection but it's just something a college ensemble doesn't really need. rather, i would suggest the PT-20(P,S,PS), a Mira 1292, or a MW 2145. all are very consistent horns and can serve a multitude of situations. if you want something bigger check out the PT-6 or the MW THOR (that's what im looking to upgrading to) and even then these horns might be a little overpowering for the smaller ensembles. in the end it comes down to what think is best for you. i'm only making suggestions based on what i play and have played. the best of luck to you in your journey to purchasing a horn.

-casey

oh and by the way, your old director, Mr. Velez, is here at Sam teaching. he's a great guy.

I agree with the others... check out some of the other horns available...

One that interests me is:

viewtopic.php?t=19814

but then I already have one... (they are nice horns)

KenS

A Yorkbrunner can be a GREAT axe! The horn that I am most familiar with, has a beautiful tone, plays well in tune, and has a HUGE, clear sound!

That being said, I don't get to take it out too often. You have to be playing in a pretty large ensemble to justfy assaulting the group with a 6/4 horn. While you don't have to play loudly on it, the tendency is that you will play louder on it, than you would on a smaller horn, if only because it magnifies everything that you do, that much more than a 4/4.

I agree with those folks who are encouraging you to focus on getting a QUALITY horn, not just getting a 6/4 (specifically, a Yorkbrunner), just for the sake of owning one.

6/4 horns should be owned in addition to a quality 4/4, not instead of!

Just my $0.02.....

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:
While you don't have to play loudly on it, the tendency is that you will play louder on it, than you would on a smaller horn, if only because it magnifies everything that you do, that much more than a 4/4.

Quite true, although I do think that once one "gets to know" their 6/4 instrument it is possible to play even softer than a much smaller German style tuba. It isn't natural to hold back with a beast on your lap, but if done properly it can have a quiet whispering sound and can blend with even the smallest of ensembles.

One thing that's for sure is the higher the ceiling, the better the BAT is going to sound. In a standard 10-12 foot room indoors, there just isn't enough space for BAT to fill. But when the space is wide open and the reverb is WIDE, a good BAT will fill that space better than any medium sized instrument.

Great taste and more filling, the BAT is like the Guiness Extra Stout of tubas. Probably not the best horn to have on a dessert island, but it doesn't get creamier and more flavorful in complexity of sound.


A big horn for a big space.

bttmbow wrote:Don't just "buy a Yorkbrunner" to bet the name; buy a GREAT horn, REGARDLESS of what the name is, the "size" is, or the "fad" is. The proof is when you pick "that horn" up and play, you are HAPPY with the way you sound (and dare I say... FEEL) on that horn. If you KNOW you want a 6/4ish thing, try as many different ones as you can, but consider trying other _/4s as well.

If I may presume to reinforce Chris's comments, I would add that I have play-tested probably a dozen Yorkbrunners. They have ranged from magical to..."Next!"

Dave Fedderly is (or was--I don't know if it's still available) selling his Yorkbrunner, which he has played and tweaked for many years. It's magical. But he thought the Meinl-Weston handmade Baer-model BAT was better enough to be worthy to replace it. I have played an original handmade Yorkbrunner, like the one Mike Sanders plays, and it was magical. Mike sounds fabulous on his--sweet, ever-present, massive, but totally under control. But I have also played Yorkbrunners that I felt like sucked the air out of me, and I've played a few that made me wonder if something was stuck in the bell.

Of those dozen or so, there are perhaps two or three that rank higher in my mind than my battered old Bb Holton.

That should tell you that even from the perspective of a second-rate amateur, Yorkbrunners are pretty variable. A great one is great, but there are other great tubas in this size class, too. And many are a lot cheaper.

And all that is separate from the question of the sense of starting with a 6/4 tuba. Even in my limited community-band world, I bought the big tuba only to supplement a collection of smaller instruments. I use the Holton more than the others, but the Holton is completely hopeless in some of those circumstances--it's just too big. And I play in a large ensemble most of the time. If I had to have only one tuba, the Holton could not be it. Thanks goodness that choice hasn't been imposed on me.

Rick "for whom the differences between great and not-so-great big tubas glow in the dark" Denney

Selecting an instrument is such an intensely personal matter. And, at your stage of life as a musician, there is a lot of uncertainty as to what you specifically will be doing 5 or 10 years down the road. Heck, life can take a big turn in a semester, or even in a day.

I cannot say that it is impossible for you to buy the Hirsbrunner HB-50, then land a major symphony gig at your first or second audition, but the chances would likely be just about as good if you took the loan money and played the lottery.

In today's situation, I think that most teachers would tell you that playing musically, but also technically very clean and precise is what will more likely get you success in an orchestral audition, which is you being judged whilst playing an excerpts recital. A 4/4 Rudolf Meinl CC or a Mirafone 188 would be the largest instrument I'd want to use in an audition. In fact, I've won more auditions using a Rudolf Meinl 3/4 CC than any other instrument.

I must disagree with Mr. Chen. I have recently been working on Chester Schmitz' HB-50, and it is not in any way an enlarged version of the smaller Hirsbrunner piston CC tubas, but an excellent representation of the 6/4 Yorks. The HB-50 came first, then, when pressed by Americans wanting a smaller, more affordable piston CC tuba, the 4/4 rotor horn was then offered in a piston version.

As for your choice for a first personal tuba, preferably a "general business tuba", comfortable in a variety of settings, I'd make the following recommendations;

1) If the school-owned instrument is serving your needs now, wait and do more fact-finding.

2) If you really need to buy a tuba, I'd suggest getting a CC first and an F later. If the CC is a large 3/4 or 4/4 model, you would only have limited need for the F anyway.

3) Play everything you can get your hands on before you buy. People can tell you what is good/not good, but you won't know the personalities of the instruments from various makers until you "meet" those instruments. You might be an Alexander/Besson/Conn/Cerveny/Meinl-Weston/Gronitz/Hirsbrunner/Rudolf Meinl/Nirschl/B & S/Willson man, but you wouldn't know if you didn't try one. If you find the instrument that you have a special affinity with, that will mean much more than the size, or anything else, for you will have an instrument that will "work with you", and for you.

4) One final note - over the next several years, you will be likely to incur fewer dents and transport damage and expense if you have a 4/4 size tuba. I could tell you plenty about the headaches of shipping 6/4 tubas!

you cannot go wrong with (simply) a Miraphone 188. It is a lil bigger than the typical 186's schools have (I know, you're a big guy after all) There are few college students around who would honstly be hampered by a 188, it'll work beautifully in 98.5% of all possible ensemble demands an undergrad has, and it'll be a good straightforward switch from the horn you're (only recently started) using now.

I fully agree, and I will add that it will work beautifully in 98.5% of the playing situations you'll find yourself in once you're out of school. After I finished my undergrad I did a lot of tuba shopping/switching and have found myself most satisfied with a large 4/4 CC tuba, rather similar in its characteristics to the 188 I had when I started college. I do a fair amount of orchestra playing and I don't find myself longing for a bigger horn. One of the guys here in LA who does a very large chunk of the top orchestra playing/recording plays on a 4/4 CC (Doug Tornquist, HB-2P - he is absolutely amazing).

All that to say, go for a good 4/4 CC. As your only CC tuba, it will limit you far less than owning a 6/4 or 5/4. and as far as 4/4 CCs go, it's tough to beat a Miraphone 188 for value, consistency and quality.

-ck