TubeNet

The Marine Corps made me an aircraft electrician because I hung out with ham radio types in high school, knew the tools and jargon, and scored high on the electronics test. I can listen to a large orchestra and tell who is blowing stinkers but I can't troubleshoot a complex circuit. All those wires look like spagetti to me. I lack the talent to be an electrician but have found some success in music. I'm still playing music in bars because they will pay me to have fun.

bloke wrote:People who are that devoted to a singular goal could easily focus the same single-mindedness to make millions of dollars in a small business or investment pursuit

During the period when I stopped playing after college I went into the computer field. I used the same discipline I had learned in music towards my new career field. I started off knowing no practical programming languages and very very little of UNIX, let alone networking, DNS, sendmail, SQL, CGI, Cisco, firewalling, Novell, NT, SNMP, Apache, IIS, Samba, leased lines, dialup, data cabling, security, etc etc etc. All that and more would have taken certificate jockeys many more years and they would have forgotten half of it after their exams.

Within 3 years I was Internet Architect for a large government contractor managing a large number of diverse systems for the US Courts Headquarters and Internet gateway in DC making darn good money. I was offered a move into a management position about the same time I got the job in "Pershing's Own".

People could not understand why I would spend so many hours practicing these new skills. To me, as a student of music, it just seemed like the natural path to take. They were REALLY confused when I left to join the Army for a large pay cut.

Even though I would probably be making at least triple what I make now if I had stuck it out in the IT industry and it looks like I will be playing three valves in BBb in a cemetery for the next 20+years, I have few regrets.

I submit that NOBODY who puts their heart and soul into their craft "does it for the money"
at least no one I've ever met, and that includes heavy hitters in the music, information technology, and racing businesses...

Well, if Scooby's a whore, then I'm a slut. I'll play for nothing. I love playing my horn, and I could never justify what I've spent vs. what I've made. Its nice to make some money playing, (frequently, I make A LOT of money playing,) but I have a great day-job and don't have to have the income. I often pass on the tips for the night just because I know that the retired guys I play with need the $ more than I do. I don't care if anybody does that for me someday, I'm just in the position that I can do that and want to do it for the guys I play with. I'm having a blast, and there's a whole lot of people out there that can't say that. That's worth a lot to me.

This is why I play in my local legion band . I love to play and so does everyone else thats there!

A few years ago, Ralph Sauer (trombonist LA Phil) did a clinic for us at FT Myer and he addressed this issue. He said that he HAD to play the trombone. Not because he had nothing else to do but that the music inside him was so big that it had to come out.

Mitch Spray

My story is similar to Chriss2760's, with the added bonus of drawing full Social Security on top of my more than adequate IT salary. This allows me to donate my "pay" to the group in those situations where we need an extra player, or an expensive sub from the big city (Boston). When I was younger and poorer I appreciated the gig money, but would play anywhwere, anytime and for any or no amount. Like most of us I love to play my tubas. - I like to practice too. My twins fell asleep for years being lulled by the dulcet sonority of my large BBb's.

pwhitaker wrote:This allows me to donate my "pay" to the group in those situations where we need an extra player, or an expensive sub from the big city (Boston).

This sometimes works against us. I also donate my earnings especially for church gigs. I take the other earnings and plow it back into music for the quintet I play with. The fact that I will play for free probably, no, I know for a fact, keeps me from getting paid more often. I also sympathize with the pros who are trying to feed their families and get squeezed out of a gig financially by an amatuer like me. But, I gotta play or die.

I have an odd set of priorities. I'll either play for decent (or better) pay, or I'll do a "charity (free) gig" but I will NOT play for pennies.

I still remember the time some lady asked me to come to her party and play violin for it (for free, of course.) At that point I was a pro, and I told her that if she wanted me to work for free I'd much rather wash dishes at her party than play violin. I don't think she ever understood what I meant. At some point, if you *are* playing for the money (and I was, at that point) you will refuse "opportunities" to play. That is why I am no longer a violin pro and am now an EE pro. I don't do EE for free now, either. What I DO do for free, still, is write music. If I won the lottery, I'd be writing music; it is the one passion that has stuck ever since high school; the others have been passing, after a decade or two.

MA

bloke wrote:Jumping away from the topic of just tuba players, I don't believe for a minute that pop music artists do what they do "for the money".

That's how it looks to me - in context of a pretty affluent society. Wind the film back to 1930, though, after a few years where the depression had blown away the normal routes to financial security like the Oklahoma topsoil that was darkening the sky. I don't know for a fact, but I have the impression that a dance band band gig was good money for a lot of musicians in those years, and it wouldn't be surprising of young people with musical talent were influenced by that.

Then look at what happened to popular music between there and WW II. There could be other explanations, but it was sure not your ordinary decade.

the elephant wrote:You're not hurting anyone in any manner that is "real" because that is very hard to do with the way things are.

Thanks for the affirmation. Two or three times a year I get the opportunity to play a mixed gig in which the local union guys are called in to supplement our church orchestra. It is always such a treat to play with them. They are so very heplful and kind. They never say a word if I miss a note or a rhythm. If I ask for advice they give it graciously, otherwise they just play their part no questions asked. I can't remember the last time I heard a wrong note, or even out of tune. In my 8 to 5 sales job that kind of generosity between salesmen just doesn't happen very often. I do a couple of church gigs a year that are of the skinflint variety and you are right, the top players are never there. I fear we are slipping steadily toward the recorded accomanyment morass. I more and more of it in churches and it is really sickening.

There is a profound, yet sad truth to this very accurate observation. While it is true that our art is a labor of love, that does not mean that we have to settle. It is true that we all were attracted to music because we had to do it or as a friend of mine once responded to a student in a clinic when asked, “Why did you chose to play the tubaâ€

Richard Murrow wrote:Often we feel so honored that someone would like to hear us play the tuba that we forget that plumbers, electricians, and auto mechanics charge dearly for their services.

One of the guys I play with uses inanimate objects when trying to convey this perspective. When discussing fees for a wedding "they pay more than that for flowers!" ... at a club, "a place like this spends that much on light bulbs!" We're kind of a big band - 14, not "big band" big, but big enough that serious money is an awkward subject.

To put this in a slightly different perspective: When the weather warms up here in Maine, the banjo guy, the reed guy and I (on tuba) are a weekly fixture at the local Farmer's Market oudoors at lunchtime every Wednesday. We depend on the kindness of strangers to throw money into the banjo case. The reed player is a retired professional musician living pretty much on SS and has to drive 35 miles to get here, and the banjo player is a full time street musician which is not that lucrative up here. I let them split the tips because they need it a lot more than do I. I just love playing with them - they are very good. This also allows us to stretch our chops a bit between the full Traditional jazz band gigs and check out tunes we might want to do.

How does this equate to "driving the price down and that affects everyone who is trying to make a living or just using the tuba for supplemental income" as is asserted in the post above. Everyone benefits from this act of "charity" - most particularly the passersby because there really isn't enough tip money for 3 musicians to be adequately compensated, thus we probably wouldn't continue playing there were I getting my fair share.

The cold truth is that the public is not willing to recompense most musicians for what they do, and what they had to do in order to accomplish what they do. It's what the market will bear. I'm sorry if some professional musicians feel that some of us playing for peanuts denigrates their profession but I'm satisfied with what I put into and get back from music, and my conscience is clear..

In our band, The Creekers, John Reno is the only full time professional. I am a postal pensioner and Kurt, our harmonica-ist, is a retired architect.
When I quit my last bar gig-after 24 years of six nights a week- a friend asked how I could stand not being a professional musician any more. I replied that anyone can make music and spend time doing other work as well. There is no shame playing part time. Six nights a week spent with drunks gets to be a grind.
John has to play for eats and works alone most nights but anybody willing to pay for a band gets me on tuba and Kurt on harmonica and rhythm as well. Since our favorite watering hole turned it's back on sailors and became a yuppy, WIFI, fern bar (they even installed a noisy ice machine right next to the band stand), we have been seeking a new home base to play sailing and funny songs. John played this joint alone last week and had Kurt and I join him there this past Saturday because he believed this could be the place to achieve Creeker magic and nirvana. Kurt and I were happy to play for tips and c.d. sales to insinuate ourselves in the hearts of owners, management and employees of the Para-dize Beach Bar and Cafe out on the Fort Morgan Peninsula. We had a great time. The owner is going our way with this unpretentious place. I hope we have found a home base for our friends to gather, eat seafood and swill beer.

Dennis Gray
tubatooter for John Reno and the Half-Fast Creekers
www.johnreno.com/

Here is a link to the Joshua Bell story - complete with some videos.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews


Pretty interesting story... sad, yet interesting.

In retrospect, I guess the "slut" analogy isn't entirely accurate: I meant to draw a contrast with a previous post that reflected (truly, with all due respect,) one players position of needing to be paid for every gig. I didn't mean to suggest that I am not selective as to the gigs I would play. I don't feel a need to be heard or that I have to give away my craft. I consider it a joy and a gift, and I am willing to share that under a pretty broad range of conditions. However, as most of us probably do, I have some values that I will not compromise. I won't perform beneath the dignity of myself or the craft.

knuxie wrote:One litmus test would be:

If they won the lottery, would they still be doing what they do?

Ken F.

Yup. Maybe somewhere else, but I'd find an outlet one way or another.

knuxie wrote:My favorite business axiom:

You work (play) for me because you can.....I pay you because I can.

Ken F.

BINGO.

Cool thread, folks. This is a REALLY important topic that is almost NEVER talked about in school situations where they supposedly prepare you for the professional world.


It's all a balance thing... usually based on what people can pay vs what the music is... I'm on both sides of it. There is the factor of IF a certain situation can pay, it absolutely should, and it is ok, as a professional to expect it.

Conversely, there is ALSO a camaraderie / barter / pro-bono arrangement that applies to certain situations as well. For instance when a player is putting together a certain project out of his pocket... for the good of the music, then it is counter productive to expect this or that.

Above all, it has to be about the music, always (that's what I believe anyway)

IF the music is making someone money, then you should get a part of it. If not, well, then go ahead and play with the intention that it still may indeed someday make you money. If not, it still betters the universe somehow... and what you put out there, will indeed eventually come back.

Listen up aspiring pros: THE MORE YOU GET OUT AND PLAY YOUR HORN, THE BETTER PLAYER YOU WILL BE, AND THE MORE OPPORTUNITIES WILL COME YOUR WAY. So get over the "no pay, no play" nonsense and get out and play and play and play as much as you humanly can. The more people that hear the great voice of the tuba, the better it is for all of us!!

Charging to play does not make you a professional player, at all.

As a contractor, I've had players try to bilk me... guess what, they work with me ONCE. (regardless of how good they are) If a player performs like it is a "job", they dont work again either. I also dont buy into the whole 'bitter' thing that SO many players fall into.

On the other hand, many players (usually the better players) are generous and collaborative with their time and energy... for the sake of the MUSIC, and the "greater good." Those are the ones I call again, and are the ones I work hard to pay again, as well as promote to others etc etc... and are usually the ones that are referred to me!! ...and usually, these are the busier players. There is something to be said for being easy to work with / for.

As a player, as long as I feel that the contractor is doing EVERYTHING in their power to do the best for the players, then I am cool with it.

And, keep in mind that no player is irreplaceable. (especially in big cities!)

It's better to negotiate with a contractor if you feel you need more money, than to turn down a gig because of lack of pay. Do what you can do to get out there and make the music.


The overall underlying issue is that in the USA, music is seen exclusively as an extra-curricular activity (as is everything that does not directly generate a profit). That puts all musicians at a disadvantage from the start, and demeans those of us who have dedicated our lives to this craft.

BUT, I still operate with the idealistic notion that if you believe in the music, it will all work out. It's gotta be about the music.

Music is a celebration and I feel lucky every time I am able to make it... and you gotta approach it as such... regardless if you are playing with the lousiest street band to the most prestigious orchestra...

One last thing, pretty much EVERYBODY loves the sound of the tuba... and loves to listen to it. In the end, many limitations we end up with are created by ourselves. There are no rules.

The right-reverend Tubajoe is in the house.

....yea, verily and all the brothers said..."Amen"

Preach-it !!

I'm not a Pro, but if I was, this is the ethic I would hope that I would use. Instead, I'm an amateur who likes to play tuba....for money and it is still the ethic that I use. I have a day job that suits me, but I love to play tuba and if I can make a buck doing it, then I'm all the happier. I play for free at church...that has it's own dividends. I play for money everywhere else......sometimes, it's just tips....but at least I'm playin'. The more I play in public, the better I get ......and the more folks seem to be interested in having me play. It works.