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Any advice for a tuba player having a heck of a time with false attacks or initial attacks? I need tips!!

I see this one a lot - in all levels of students. What is happening is that the air is starting somewhere else rather than from right behind the tongue. To get a feel for how it should be, whisper the syllable "huT" and hold the "T". You will now feel the air where it belongs - right behind the tongue. Now go from the "huT" right into the attack "TOE" and you should find that the attack is crisper and there should be no hint of air sound before the note begins. That little bit of air sound through the horn before the note begins is the symptom and I listen carefully for it in my students and myself. It is usually the sign that the air is not where it needs to be.

Just my observations.
Roger

I think its a cordination thing. When i am playing fast music like Bozza, the tongue seems to "line up", but when i am playing slow and lyrical music my tongue either gets stuck and the air stops or i get the hut toh attack. I have worked with breath attacks and breathing excersises to make sure that the air is being used properly, but i can not for the life of me rid my self of this wretched habit. Thanks for the posts guys!! I will experiment with your suggestions in my lab. Keep em' coming.

Here is a thought. Anybody, feel free to jump in and tell me I'm all wet.

Do you have a clear plastic mouthpiece? It can be a wonderful diagnostic tool for attack.

Check your student out on the clear mouthpiece. Can you see the tongue on the attack? If not, coach your student to try, at first, to place the upper side of the tip of his/her tongue to the center of the upper lip, just visible. Practice the attack in that "tongue-forward" config for a while, until the attack stabilizes. Then gradually, like over the course of a few weeks, have the student back the placement back behind the lip to the bottom of the top incisors.

Lots of Arban, lots of repetitive quarter notes. That has worked for me. Again, tongue placement, and lots of reps with an isolation of focus on the one aspect - where is the tip of your tongue?

2badude wrote:I think its a cordination thing. When i am playing fast music like Bozza, the tongue seems to "line up", but when i am playing slow and lyrical music my tongue either gets stuck and the air stops or i get the hut toh attack. I have worked with breath attacks and breathing excersises to make sure that the air is being used properly, but i can not for the life of me rid my self of this wretched habit. Thanks for the posts guys!! I will experiment with your suggestions in my lab. Keep em' coming.

The tongue might be too slow going down and interfering with the airflow, plus other factors.

A private lesson can clear this problem up.

Thanks for the tips guys. I have been working with my teacher at my university. I reside in Michigan, any tips as to whom a good teacher would be to diagnose and cure my problem? i am fully aware that there is no magical cure, but i need guidance. I did not have this problem for the first 5 years of my playing. i wonder if the combination of having 6 wisdom teeth pulled and the addition of the F tuba into my regiment had anything to do with the development of the new habit.?.

Hi.

Adding the F tuba might very well have had an effect on this, as, depending on the horn, many people have to change the physical aspect of how they play to get some of the older F tubas to actually work. For example getting a low C out of some PT10's - EVERYTHING has to change.

You may have developed a coping strategy to get this one note to work and are now employing that on your other horn or on the easier notes on the F tuba as well.

I agree with the other posters who recommended fundamentals. I cannot stress these enough to my students.

Here's a trick I use (caution - lengthy post ahead):

Many of us, in the attack process, pull the tongue up into the attack position (somewhere near where the upper teeth and gums meet depending on the player and the teacher). Then when it becomes time to start the note, the muscles are used to pull the tongue out of the way (down). The tongue is just one large muscle and if you are pulling the tongue up and then pulling the tongue down, you are working this muscle pretty hard. What I do, mainly in slower passages, is pull the tongue up into position, start the exhalation so that there is pressure behind the tongue, then I just relax the tongue and let the pressurized air BLOW the tongue out of the way. You'll never miss an attack doing it this way and the tongue works half as much, leading to less fatigue.

As you work on this you can get it going much faster and you will find that your single tongue speed will be quicker than before and you will not fatigue anywhere near as fast as you had before.

This is a trick the I use and it works for ME.

Where in Michigan are you located? I live in Michigan and would be glad to help out. Drop me a PM and let me know.

Roger

Six wisdom teeth?

I guess some are simply wiser than others.

Thanks Roger! I was using your suggestions last night in my practice and I was able to clean up a mushy attack on a difficult passage/note.

Scot "who has been cherry picking suggestions on this board for the last 9 months" GJ

Roger,

I just want to say publicly that I think your ability to put technique into English is at the very top of anything I have ever encountered. If I lived within driving distance, I'd be taking lessons from you. You are the example I use when I hear the old "analysis is paralysis" mumbo-jumbo from people who lack the ability to teach and who couch that lack in smoke and mirrors.

MA

Roger wrote:I see this one a lot - in all levels of students. What is happening is that the air is starting somewhere else rather than from right behind the tongue. To get a feel for how it should be, whisper the syllable "huT" and hold the "T". You will now feel the air where it belongs - right behind the tongue. Now go from the "huT" right into the attack "TOE" and you should find that the attack is crisper and there should be no hint of air sound before the note begins. That little bit of air sound through the horn before the note begins is the symptom and I listen carefully for it in my students and myself. It is usually the sign that the air is not where it needs to be.

Just my observations.
Roger

ScotGJ wrote:Thanks Roger! I was using your suggestions last night in my practice and I was able to clean up a mushy attack on a difficult passage/note.

Scot "who has been cherry picking suggestions on this board for the last 9 months" GJ

MaryAnn wrote:Roger,

I just want to say publicly that I think your ability to put technique into English is at the very top of anything I have ever encountered. If I lived within driving distance, I'd be taking lessons from you. You are the example I use when I hear the old "analysis is paralysis" mumbo-jumbo from people who lack the ability to teach and who couch that lack in smoke and mirrors.

MA

Roger, you've gotta get that book done and out to the world!!!!!

JB "who has also had to good fortune to correspond with Roger about tuba pedagogy, and has heard similar gems"

Sounds like a great idea - but what help is it if you've consistently done 20 exactly the same bad attacks? It will develop consistency once you have a good attack, but until then, you are only perpetuating a potentially poor and limiting attack.

I don't think you need a meter for this - you need ears. Work on attacks in a totally dark room where you have no visual distractions and can focus on what the process is. Use imagery to go through the steps of the attack slowly so you can "feel" what it needs to be like at each step along the way to a good attack. (Yes, there are steps). Once you have that "feeling" locked in, repeat the attack about 1,000 times to develop consistency. Remember, there are about a million different attacks and you need to be proficient on all of them, so have all kinds of "hard" attacks and "soft" attacks in your arsenal of abilities.

Just because a machine is available doesn't mean you should rely on it's answers always being right. Kinda' like a computer, eh?

Just my $0.02 (Hey, where the hell did the "cents" button go?)
Roger

One other suggestion that has really helped my attacks (when I do it consistently)

Take the tongue out of the equation entirely and work just on starting the note with the breath. This really helps your face and brain automatically figure out more where notes "sit" on your lips and horn.

This may not seem like it answers any of your questions about your problems, but here's my theory:

Since the tuba's sound production depends completely on air and air delivery, we as players need to take our playing back to these most basic and simple concepts. The tongue often interferes with attacks and makes the player less confident. Lack of confidence in my experience comes from the fact that air pressure behind the tongue and actual tongue position often varies and causes inconsistency. If the player takes the tongue out of it, confidence and consistency can be built much easier because the process is simplified.

After you build up confidence in knowing where notes occur and how to make them without the tongue, tongued attacks become easier because you have less to worry about. This is simply a parallel theory, I definately buy into Roger Lewis' teaching here.