Conn 36j question
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pjv
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Conn 36j question
Funny how I always assumed that my 36j (1930)would have the same boring as a 20k, but its actually larger. Looking at old catalogues doesn't really help any. Anyone know the bore size specs on these old Conns?
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Rick Denney
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Re: Conn 36j question
The problem is that the label "36j" has been used by several instruments of different specification over the years.pjv wrote:Funny how I always assumed that my 36j (1930)would have the same boring as a 20k, but its actually larger. Looking at old catalogues doesn't really help any. Anyone know the bore size specs on these old Conns?
As far as I know, the 36J Orchestra Grand Bass has different specifications than the 36J DeLuxe Recording Model Bass pictured in my mid-30's Conn catalog. My catalog doesn't give specifications, but it looks to have long-action valves of the same bore as the short-action upright basses, which was .770", with a removable forward bell and BBb pitch. I've seen catalog pictures (one was reproduced in Donald Stauffer's book A Treatise on the Tuba) that showed a fixed upright bell and a pitch of CC, designated a 36J Orchestra Grand Bass. That model also, I think, had the .770" bore. I don't know the year of that picture.
Long-stroke top-action tubas in my catalog are designated 30J and 34J, the latter having four instead of three valves. The front-action instruments with long-stroke valves were designated 32J and 36J, with the latter having four valves. All were shown with detachable recording bells. Only two short-action tubas were shown, the 20J and the 22J, the latter having four valves but both having a recording bell. This 1934 catalog showed no upright bells at all.
All the common top-action 2xJ's have a .770" bore as well.
The short-action sousaphones like the 20K had a .730" bore.
Rick "thinking Conn designations get reused" Denney
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Rick Denney
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You are correct and I misspoke. The 20J and 22J are both three valves, with the latter being front action.HeliconMan wrote:Rick
I thought that 22J's only had 3 valves. No matter, since you are a resident genius, what was the term "medium bore" referring to on the Conn 80J from the '34 catalog. I recently acquired a horn and am wondering what the bore would be. Possibly about .725 since .687 is considered "entry level professional" and .770/3 is large bore?
I don't know what the medium bore is in the 80J. I've never even seen one, and it was listed but not pictured in the catalog. The short-action sousaphones aren't shown in that catalog and so I can't see how they describe a .730 bore. The sousaphones listed were the 32K (Lightweight Sousaphone), the 38K (Sousaphone Grand) and the 48K (Jumbo Sousaphone Grand). The first two had the same bore, but without identification of that bore. Klaus has a 38K so he can tell us. Conn called that bore "large".
Rick "probably agreeing with Conn--who didn't even mention numbers--about the importance of bore" Denney
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imperialbari
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The 38K certainly should be a great instrument. I never had one in my hands, but its de-luxe sibling, the 4 valve 40K certainly points in that direction. And that's the one sitting on its Wenger chair right behind me.
The thousandths-of-an-inch standard measurement of brass instrument bores is an odd entity. Inches are long outdated in the real world, and when used in the portion of the world counting itself the real one (in the Ringling & Barnum sense it actually is right) it creates disasters, when used in out-of-this-world contexts (end of cryptogram).
Even I have been corrupted by using the thousandths-of-an-inch for most of my life. I only know a very few bore standards in mm:
11 mm = older German rotary trumpet (.433)
12 mm = Yamaha French horns (.472)
12.7 mm = jazz trombone (.500)
When I rather late in my life entered the low conical brass world, I was most surprised to learn, that the US type low brasses, at least from Eb and downwards came in bore sizes, which actually increased in increments of 0.5 mm:
MM Inches
17.0 0.669
17.5 0.689
18.0 0.709
18.5 0.728
19.0 0.748
19.5 0.768
20.0 0.787
20.5 0.807
21.0 0.827
21.5 0.846
22.0 0.866
The .689 bore was/is the standard for largish low Eb brasses (Besson compers, Conn 26K, 28K, and more) and for "consumer" BBb brasses (King tubas and sousas, the current Conn plastophone)
I have seen samples of the .709 bore, but cannot come up with names right now. The experts surely could do that.
The .728 bore is known from a number of for real BBb sousaphones from Conn (38K, 40K, 14K, 20K) and from the Besson BBb compers. The experts will be able to complete this list.
The .748 is known from one of my favourite BBb tubas, the German made York Master and from some of the Chicago York clones: Hirsburner and Nirschl.
You may find that the conversion table above here is a bit long, but I seem to remember, that the 5th valves of the York clones actually present such huge bores in their 5th valves.
Bore certainly is a factor in playability, feel, and sound. But truth should be honoured: My .728 BBb bass plays bigger than does my .748 BBb bass.
The reason may be, that the Conn 40K is quite short in sharp bends, even if it goes behind my back, while I am playing it. The .748 bore of the YM gives it great hall filling capabilities, an immensely easy legato, and great agility with much less edge, but also with a little less presence to the sound.
I have been political in this posting. I stand by that. What makes me cross is not, that I would like to deny the USians to elect their own presidents, if they would manage to count votes by general standards of arithmetic. But we have a clone as prime minister presently, and that surely is no fun.
I am all pro democracy, but I have to relay a true story from the first populist wave of ours some 3 decades ago:
A constituency in one of our outback provinces had elected a member of parliament with an IQ very close to his height as measured in inches. And he was no tall man.
A journalist approached the local chairman of the party in question and asked: How in H*** can you elect such an idiot?
The proud answer was: You surely are right, that he is an idiot. But we as his constituency feel, that he represents us very well!
The often referred to 1934 bass brochure can be downloaded in extenso from (if you sign up):
Conn bass instruments’ catalogue from December 1934. Thanks to the generosity of Rob Perelli-Minetti the YMPP project can present scans of a December 1934 Conn bass instruments brochure. 14 pages in B/W (1590K):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... ochure.pdf
Klaus
The thousandths-of-an-inch standard measurement of brass instrument bores is an odd entity. Inches are long outdated in the real world, and when used in the portion of the world counting itself the real one (in the Ringling & Barnum sense it actually is right) it creates disasters, when used in out-of-this-world contexts (end of cryptogram).
Even I have been corrupted by using the thousandths-of-an-inch for most of my life. I only know a very few bore standards in mm:
11 mm = older German rotary trumpet (.433)
12 mm = Yamaha French horns (.472)
12.7 mm = jazz trombone (.500)
When I rather late in my life entered the low conical brass world, I was most surprised to learn, that the US type low brasses, at least from Eb and downwards came in bore sizes, which actually increased in increments of 0.5 mm:
MM Inches
17.0 0.669
17.5 0.689
18.0 0.709
18.5 0.728
19.0 0.748
19.5 0.768
20.0 0.787
20.5 0.807
21.0 0.827
21.5 0.846
22.0 0.866
The .689 bore was/is the standard for largish low Eb brasses (Besson compers, Conn 26K, 28K, and more) and for "consumer" BBb brasses (King tubas and sousas, the current Conn plastophone)
I have seen samples of the .709 bore, but cannot come up with names right now. The experts surely could do that.
The .728 bore is known from a number of for real BBb sousaphones from Conn (38K, 40K, 14K, 20K) and from the Besson BBb compers. The experts will be able to complete this list.
The .748 is known from one of my favourite BBb tubas, the German made York Master and from some of the Chicago York clones: Hirsburner and Nirschl.
You may find that the conversion table above here is a bit long, but I seem to remember, that the 5th valves of the York clones actually present such huge bores in their 5th valves.
Bore certainly is a factor in playability, feel, and sound. But truth should be honoured: My .728 BBb bass plays bigger than does my .748 BBb bass.
The reason may be, that the Conn 40K is quite short in sharp bends, even if it goes behind my back, while I am playing it. The .748 bore of the YM gives it great hall filling capabilities, an immensely easy legato, and great agility with much less edge, but also with a little less presence to the sound.
I have been political in this posting. I stand by that. What makes me cross is not, that I would like to deny the USians to elect their own presidents, if they would manage to count votes by general standards of arithmetic. But we have a clone as prime minister presently, and that surely is no fun.
I am all pro democracy, but I have to relay a true story from the first populist wave of ours some 3 decades ago:
A constituency in one of our outback provinces had elected a member of parliament with an IQ very close to his height as measured in inches. And he was no tall man.
A journalist approached the local chairman of the party in question and asked: How in H*** can you elect such an idiot?
The proud answer was: You surely are right, that he is an idiot. But we as his constituency feel, that he represents us very well!
The often referred to 1934 bass brochure can be downloaded in extenso from (if you sign up):
Conn bass instruments’ catalogue from December 1934. Thanks to the generosity of Rob Perelli-Minetti the YMPP project can present scans of a December 1934 Conn bass instruments brochure. 14 pages in B/W (1590K):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... ochure.pdf
Klaus
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pjv
- 4 valves
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- Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:39 am
wow
Looks like I'm out of my league, since I just play these beasts. I guess if anyone wants to know. I could have my repair-guy measure it. We're looking at a four front-valved recording bass.
Snce we're into it, I could have my 32k (1934) measured up, since the description in the Conn catalogue as being a light-weight 38k seams misleading. It looks more like 14k as far as the bell collar size is concerned (o.k. with three bell screws). Since I'm in Holland, I can give also our Dane the metrics as well. I'd post pics, but They got too many pixels. If anyone knows how to reduce it, I could use the advice.
Thanks
Snce we're into it, I could have my 32k (1934) measured up, since the description in the Conn catalogue as being a light-weight 38k seams misleading. It looks more like 14k as far as the bell collar size is concerned (o.k. with three bell screws). Since I'm in Holland, I can give also our Dane the metrics as well. I'd post pics, but They got too many pixels. If anyone knows how to reduce it, I could use the advice.
Thanks
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Lew
- 5 valves
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- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:57 pm
- Location: Annville, PA
imperialbari wrote: ... The thousandths-of-an-inch standard measurement of brass instrument bores is an odd entity. Inches are long outdated in the real world, ...
Except in the US where many, if not most, manufacturing processes still use "English" measurements. Try using metric wrenches on a Chevy. Or are you saying that the US is not part of the real world? Do you really want to go there?
My measurement, and what Conn quoted, for the 20K bore was actually 0.734". Similarly, the 2XJ's that I have owned have all measured to about 0.770" bore.imperialbari wrote:The .689 bore was/is the standard for largish low Eb brasses (Besson compers, Conn 26K, 28K, and more) and for "consumer" BBb brasses (King tubas and sousas, the current Conn plastophone)
I have seen samples of the .709 bore, but cannot come up with names right now. The experts surely could do that.
The .728 bore is known from a number of for real BBb sousaphones from Conn (38K, 40K, 14K, 20K) and from the Besson BBb compers. The experts will be able to complete this list.
The .748 is known from one of my favourite BBb tubas, the German made York Master and from some of the Chicago York clones: Hirsburner and Nirschl.
You may find that the conversion table above here is a bit long, but I seem to remember, that the 5th valves of the York clones actually present such huge bores in their 5th valves.
Bore certainly is a factor in playability, feel, and sound. But truth should be honoured: My .728 BBb bass plays bigger than does my .748 BBb bass.
I'm not sure what the correlation between bore, playability, and sound is, but my King with a 0.689" bore can project as well as any 20J. My Martin, with a 0.750" bore can provide a foundation for a very large group all by itself, but I think that has more to do with the overall size and the 24" bell than the bore.
I'm glad that I could provide a resource to the tuba world by getting this oft quoted 1934 catalog out of my drawer and into Rob's and therefore Klaus' hands.