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Scooby Tuba wrote:I've noticed quite a few of these blatweasels (YBH-301 British style baritones) on a certain action site. They were seemingly rare,.... so maybe there's a market...

These things are a requirement for brass bands and are fairly hard to find.

An essential part of the make up of the British style brass bands. In the wrong hands they just sound like a valve trombone, or thin Euphonium, but they have their own voice and timbre which is quite unique;

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=709475&t=6206

CB

They YBH-201 is pretty good for a baritone and the YAH-201 is one of the better tenorhorns (alto horns), even though both are classified as "intermediate".

The standard baritone for a British or British style brass band for a century has been the B&H/Besson style with the small bore, more cylindrical profile and a tight taper to a quick flare bell a little larger in diameter at the rim than a trombone, built as a top 3-valve compensating model. With the small bore and more cylindrical profile, it is not made to do a low range like a euph, hence the 3-valve comp instead of a 4-valve. Music for brass band baritone is written in transposed treble clef the same as American concert band euph treble clef parts.

EDIT -- A guy on another forum asked if either horn was ever called "tenor." It got me to thinking about nomenclature and voicing of brass instruments in general, how they are derived, and why a baritone is called a baritone. Here's what I came up with:

A euphonium has been called a "tenor tuba." A baritone is a baritone. The actual full name for it, with its saxhorn origin and history, is "baritone horn."

Because different nations and national schools consider a standard Bb cornet or trumpet differently, either as a "soprano" or "alto" voice, the rest of the brass family therefore has different names, depending on where you are. If you go by usable high range, then a Bb cornet or trumpet is a "soprano" voice, and everything else follows from there, including the smaller Eb horn produced by King and others a generation ago as an "altonium," and the same instrument in Germany, whether bell up or oval, is called an "althorn."

If, as should be considered, however, the lower range limit as the basis for nomenclature, then a standard Bb cornet or trumpet is the "alto" part, with its lower limit being below the treble clef. In this context, the rest of the nomenclature of British brass band instruments then makes sense, with the smaller Eb cornet being called the soprano cornet, the Eb horn pitched below a cornet being called the tenor horn instead of an alto horn or altonium, and the Bb horn an octave below the cornet, and the subject of this thread, being called the baritone horn because its lowest pitch on a three valve version is rarely used, and is generally played in the range of concert pitch open second line Bb, or usually at most bottom line G, to just above the bass clef, the same range as the human voice designated baritone, and notated in transposed treble clef open middle C, or usually at most 2 ledger line A fingered 1-2, to the top of the treble clef, or just slighly above it. F and Eb tubas, then, are properly called bass tubas and BBb and CC tubas are properly called contrabass tubas.

A modern euphonium, therefore, with its wide bore, broad tone and extreme range, and as opposed to a baritone horn, is now more akin to a flugelhorn than anything else, save range, and setting aside any divergence of historical origin or development, stands on its own, rather than being called a pitch designation like other brass instruments.

iiipopes wrote:TA modern euphonium, therefore, with its wide bore, broad tone and extreme range, and as opposed to a baritone horn, is now more akin to a flugelhorn than anything else, save range, and setting aside any divergence of historical origin or development, stands on its own, rather than being called a pitch designation like other brass instruments.

In the saxhorn world (at least in the US), we had Bb tenor horn, Bb baritone and Bb bass horns. One can see the scoring for these in some of the 1860's-1880's brass band scores. There is a differentiation between "whole tube" and "half tube" saxhorns and I suspect that the tenor implies the half-tube one and the baritone, the whole-tube. Our modern Euphonium, not being a saxhorn at all, but rather a flugelhorn, is probably the bass (definitely not a bass tuba.

these would indeed make nice horns to start beginners on, although they are a bit pricey. (new anyway)

I have been starting my students on the King 3/4 horn. Weril makes a nice one too. i just played it at the PMEA conference. It was branded as a Holton. Jupiter makes a nice one too, for a little less money than the Yamaha.

We use two yamahas in the Lancaster BBB

ken k

Scooby Tuba wrote:Are folks (ie, band teachers) using them in an other than traditional brass band role?

YES! I am always called on to play a baritone on the baritone part to Lincolnshire Posey while the euphonium part is played on euphonium. Very different sound for a very different musical purpose.

Scooby Tuba wrote:

Scooby Tuba wrote:Are some folks out there starting beginners on these and then switching to bigger horns?

Yes and no. I have a private student form a local middle school who is using one of these; it turns out that they were purchased by the school accidentally. Apparently, they meant to get a bunch of euphs, but somehow ended up with a handful of these little things instead. (I thought it was an alto horn when I first saw it, but realised right away it's actually a baritone.) So this particular student is starting on one, but I'm not sure he'll switch to a larger horn any time soon, as he has a physical disability which requires him to play left-handed. The small size of the baritone is perfect for him.

MF

I agree with BB is G, that the baritone would make a superb jazz instrument, and have wished that some of the great jazz artists had discovered the instrument, say an artist the caliber of Bob Brookmeyer.

John

EuphoniumPlayer87 wrote:

I played one in a Tuba Quartet recently during a Mexican inspired piece.

I have seriously considered using a British baritone in our tuba-euph quartet for an occasional change in color, but I believe it would sound much like my bass trumpet.

How good is the intonation on the pricier British-style baritones? My bass trumpet is rather good, but we're always looking for something better, right?

Michael "sort of trying not to become a collector" Denney

From reading the collective wisdom from brass-forum.co.uk and some other brass band sights, it seems that for the standard Besson 3-valve comp baritone, due to the tightness of the comp loops, that 2-3 can sometimes be a little flat, and because of the small bore 1-3 and 123 can sometimes be a bit stuffy, and anything below 1st valve below the treble clef Bb (remember brass band music is written in treble clef like treble clef euph for concert band) gets grainy. Other than that, intonation and tone are supposed to be really good and even, with a definite difference in tone color that is between euph and trombone, but with a little different personality than just a straight hybrid.