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One of the orchestras I play with has the Fantasia on British Sea Songs arranged by Sir Henry Wood on the programme for our next concert.

I have a part marked TUBA (+EUPHONIUM) where part way through it says "To Euphonium", then the famous solo, Jolly and Gay, then "Change to Tuba". The problem is I do not have and have never played a Euphonium and the orchestra is reluctant to hire a euphonium player for so little (in a children's concert).

I may be able to get hold of a euphonium, but would I really be able to learn to play it well enough in 3 weeks? Alternatively, I wonder about playing the solo on my Eb tuba - it goes up to G an octave above the stave, so not quite as high as Bydlo, but would it sound right?

Any thoughts?

Bob1062 wrote:I don't remember the name (B A G F# G E, repeat,...).

That is the piece!

I would try borrowing a euphonium and practising the solo. Switching from the E flat tuba to the euphonium shouldn't be more difficult than switching from the C tuba to the E flat tuba.

When you have practised this solo for a week or so, decide whether it sounds better on the euphonium or the tuba.

(For the record, I mostly play E flat tuba and occasionally B flat. I managed to play an entire wind band concert on euphonium approximately ten days after I first tried playing one. I admit that I played treble clef parts, so I only had to add three flats and use E flat tuba fingerings.)

A few thoughts:

Even if it's "just" a kiddie show, it isn't the best thing to have someone with only two or three weeks experience on an instrument play a prominent solo.

Asking a tubist to play euphonium is a bit like asking a trombonist to play trumpet, or a bassoonist to play oboe. Some already do play these other instruments, but I bet it took them more than three weeks to learn!

If it's "just" a kiddie show, they don't have to program music that calls for instruments they don't usually have.

If it's "just" a kiddie show, one doesn't have to be a slave to the arranger's orchestration choices. Another instrument could play the solo (trombone?, alto clarinet?, tenor sax?). I don't see anything immoral in a bit of re-arranging the product of an arranger.

And, if you choose to try, good luck!

Cheers,
Allen

Adam Peck wrote:Allen.
Just for the record the words "just" a kiddie show..never appeared in my post. I take every performance very seriously. Also I'm sure the original poster would never take on very difficult euphonium solo passages unless he thought he could perform it musically. In addition I don't think a switch from tuba to euphonium"tenor tuba" is even a bit like the switch from trombone to trumpet.....very different brass instruments.

I agree that the orchestra should program music according to the instrumentation they normally have on hand. Many of my fellow brass players shared your observation after the concert.

Re-reading my post, I can see that it seems a bit condescending. I didn't mean it that way. My apologies.

I'm sure that you and the OP take performances seriously. It's also possible that one can (like me) be tempted to take on too difficult a task in too short a time, in a sprirt of trying to help out. My intent was to counter that temptation.

Regarding the comparison between tuba/euphonium and trombone/trumpet, I don't think that's too far off. Tuba/euphonium are both conical bore and around an octave apart (less in the case of bass tuba versus euphonium). Trombone/trumpet are both cylindrical bore and an octave apart. There is, of course slide versus valves. Perhaps I should have compared valve trombone and trumpet.

We tubists are expected to play more different instruments and what amounts to a huge tessitura compared to other brass instrument players. For example, French horn players tend to specialize in playing high horn or low horn parts. Although a person who normally plays Bb clarinet may be expected to pick up an A clarinet at any time, the higher Eb clarinet is usually a specialist's instrument. And so forth.

Oh, and then there's all that stuff about the Bydlo solo from the Ravel orchestration of "Pictures" that has been caused by the fact that the French word for euphonium is "tuba." If there were separate unions for tubists and euphoniumists, I'm sure the jurisdicional battle would have been fun.

Cheers,
Allen

Thing is, Pictures is all one part. Nowhere does it say "to euphonium." Thus, when you are the tuba player and you get the part, the Bydlo solo is your responsibility.

However, euphonium is not an expected doubling instrument for a tuba player (nor a trombone player)... like piccolo would be for a flute player, or english horn for an oboist (BTW they often get paid more when they play more than one instrument).

It's really not your responsibility to cover the euphonium part. If there were just "really high stuff in your part that you think would work better on euphonium" then it would be (which is the Bydlo situation).

Tell your conductor that you don't own a euphonium, and that you do not know how to play one. Leave the decision to them (it was their choice to program the piece, they should have known about this potential problem). They may get you to play the solo, perhaps down an octave... or give it to a horn or trombone player. Not your problem... can you imagine the revolt if in the cello part it is written "to viola?"

From "The Euphonium and British Music" by Philip Scowcroft:

"And one of the highlights of Henry J Wood's perennially popular Fantasia on British Sea Songs (1905) is the solo in "The Saucy Arethusa" section originally intended for euphonium but nowadays it is often played on the bass tuba."

quinterbourne wrote:Thing is, Pictures is all one part. Nowhere does it say "to euphonium." Thus, when you are the tuba player and you get the part, the Bydlo solo is your responsibility. ...
...

If we had proper translations from French, the part would not say "tuba."

The bass brass instrument that Ravel wrote for was the size of a euphonium, but pitched a whole tone HIGHER (in C) than the euphonium. It had six piston valves to facilitate playing much lower than euphoniums usually play. That's what the French used (up until around 1960) in place of what the rest of know as a tuba.

If you get handed a part labelled "tuba" for the Moussorgsky/Ravel "Pictures," and don't play that little coffeepot of a French "tuba," you have an interpretation problem of what instrument or instruments you should use. Of course, the fact that the sound of all modern brass instruments is quite different from that of brass instruments in early 20th-century France makes it difficult to argue for trying to create an "authentic" sound for this part.

Myself, I have heard "Bydlo" enough times either played badly or not sounding well to reach the conclusion that it is not an appropriate solo for the bass or contrabass tuba, even if the tubist can hit the notes. It's beyond the range in which the instrument performs well. That a few quite exceptional tubists can play it well does not change my conclusion. I do think it's a great euphonium solo.

To summarize the problems: 1) Mistranslation from French; 2) Obsolete instrument; 3) Large changes in sonorities and loudness of orchestral brass instruments from what Maurice Ravel had heard in his lifetime.

Cheers,
Allen

Well, we played through the British Sea Songs in rehearsal this evening. After much considering of options, I decided to trial play the solo (which I now know is generally called "Saucy Arethusa") on my PT-20 4/4 CC using a PT-65 shallow cup mouthpiece.

It actually worked very well on the CC - the general consensus from the orchestra was that it sounded just fine on the big tuba and the conductor was well satisfied.

It looks like I will get the opportunity later this week to borrow a 'real' euphonium if I so wish, but think with only one week to the concert, I will stick with the winning combination of the PT-20 with PT-65!

Jonathan "who was particularly surprised that the CC sang the high G better than his Eb"

Neptune wrote:I may be able to get hold of a euphonium, but would I really be able to learn to play it well enough in 3 weeks? Alternatively, I wonder about playing the solo on my Eb tuba - it goes up to G an octave above the stave, so not quite as high as Bydlo, but would it sound right?

In my humble opinion, if you can play it on an Eb, you can play it well enough on a euphonium. Get an SM3 mouthpiece, stick it in a Besson euph, and go for it.

You may not impress Mr. Mead, but that isn't the order of the day.

I've never heard this work, but I'll be it doesn't have the low notes or or the pianissimo high G# entrance as does the Bydlo. That's what causes problems for tuba players, it seems to me.

Rick "who can play euphonium passably well for several minutes without much preparation" Denney