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For you European players-

Is it still advantageous to use BB flat tuba rather than CC tuba (in addition to FF) as one's contrabass tuba in a European, namely German orchestra audition?

Is BB flat tuba still the contrabass tuba of choice amongst European players?

I'd love to see that FF tuba!!!

Try to take these on a commercial aircraft!

That was written poorly, I meant the use of contrabass tuba-BB flat or CC, in addition to basstuba-FF.

Your technicality is getting us veterans even more confused.

Mojo workin' wrote:That was written poorly, I meant the use of contrabass tuba-BB flat or CC, in addition to basstuba-FF.

Most of us know what you meant, and based on widely-accepted music theory (vs practice), your thought was not conveyed improperly. In the Helmholtz system of pitch notation ("widely used by scientists and doctors when discussing the scientific and medical aspects of sound in relation to the auditory system"), it is widely accepted that middle C on the piano keyboard is written as "c1" (w/a superscript 1). Conversely, descending on the piano keyboard, the next C (small C) is written "c," the next (great C), "C," and the lowest C on the piano (contra C), "CC." Since the fundamental pitch of a contrabass tuba pitched in C is that same contra C, it is called a "CC tuba." Likewise, the tuba pitched a minor 3rd higher, in Eb, should be called an "EEb tuba," and the tuba in F, an "FF tuba." I don't know this for a fact, but I'd imagine that the bass tubas have been referred to by only the single-letter names Eb and F, because of the fact that they are bass tubas (vs. contrabass tubas) and therefore believed to be deserving of a different label than their contrabass counterparts.

The real rub comes with the contrabass tuba pitched in Bb. Since the nomenclature changes w/each successive C on the piano, the proper (theoretically speaking) name for that instrument is the "BBBb tuba." One can only assume that one of the B's was dropped from the name, to avoid redundancy and to make it match the name of its sister, the CC tuba. Once again, theory and practice don't line up.

Coming here to study as an american, I was told early on at auditions that I would have had more of an advantage playing on a BBb tuba. At first it upset me. I thought, "if you sound good why should it matter what you play on". I understand the simple tradition side of it...but I quickly sold my hirsbrunner and play exclusively on a Melton 197 BBb now. After a while you really do come to realize that it is QUITE a different horn than any CC tuba I have ever played. But to answer your question:
Taking auditions, most EVERYONE plays on BBb unless it is an international audition. Once you get the job, you can do whatever you want. I think Jens Bjorn Larsen in Hannover plays on CC for example. As well as David Glidden in Frankfurt. Hope that helps!

tubashaman wrote:CC professional horns are normally better in tune, more trusted, and are lighter in nature

......In America...have you ever played on a good BBb tuba? I used to think exactly the same.

tubashaman wrote:CC professional horns are normally better in tune, more trusted, and are lighter in nature

Id say the best kind to buy is a 5/4 CC, then you get the lightness and the force behind that

If your doing orchestra, or doing solo literature, CC is the best choice ( i dont even own a F yet), but if your doing military band type setting, a BBb wouldnt be half bad

Really?

My nomenclature comes from correspondence that I've had with my former teacher Dave Fedderly. That is how he has referred to the different pitched tubas. Maybe we're both incorrect. I don't really care and I bet he wouldn't either.
So far I've counted one response actually addressing my question.

Yes, but before you choose not to care too much, you might note that the nomenclature tangent was taken in your defense, and to address a commonly encountered question/misconception. While I've never had a lesson w/Dave, I know him well enough to know that he is very knowledgeable about the technical aspects of both the tuba and the tuba player. While the nomenclature information may not get you a date w/a beautiful woman, it's still worth spouting in an appropriate forum such as this. Besides, there may be someone who does care.

David "Remembering Why I So Seldom Reply to Tubenet Threads Anymore" Graves

I appreciate the fact that there were responses posted in my defense.

Looking at Baltimore Brass Company's website, I've noticed that Dave refers to the basstubas as Eb and F. My mistake.

Still, this discussion was started by a smart aleck response to my post, that didn't address my question.

While this is true, I was serious in my implication. And I am serious about my confusion. Whenever I saw the Besson ads with BBb tubas and Bb tubas that were the same size, I was terribly confused. There were also EEb and Eb tubas in the same catalog.

The nomenclature is important if you are serious about playing tuba. Understand what it means. Non-tuba players will ask you about such things!

tubashaman wrote:CC professional horns are normally better in tune, more trusted, and are lighter in nature

Uh-oh.

You just dropped a bomb. Better you than me, as is usually the case.




(who has yet to play a CC that he hasn't had to "work" on intonation issues with---regardless of whether they are higher or lower end instruments)

tubashaman wrote:CC professional horns are normally better in tune, more trusted, and are lighter in nature

This is nonsense.

tubashaman wrote:CC professional horns are normally better in tune, more trusted, and are lighter in nature

Well, they usually cost more. And they feel a little different. There are some different kinds of choices available, too.

I'll agree they are more trusted. Otherwise people wouldn't pay so much more for them (although a Willson 3100 or a Bayreuth model Rudolf Meinl aren't exactly cheap). Most folks, though are comparing a battered student-model Bb to a pro-quality C tuba, so the trust that comparison earns isn't exactly rational.

Better in tune? Lighter in nature? Heh, heh.

Rick "laughing derisively" Denney

The B-Natural tuba offers the perfect balance between the elephantine, ponderous B-flat and the light, panty-waist C. Naturally, to play a B-Natural one should be natural and play in the nude after not having bathed for a week. If the ground is rough, Earth Shoes are permitted as are daisies in your hair.
(any visually oriented people out there?)

Mojo workin' wrote:My nomenclature comes from correspondence that I've had with my former teacher Dave Fedderly. That is how he has referred to the different pitched tubas. Maybe we're both incorrect. I don't really care and I bet he wouldn't either.
So far I've counted one response actually addressing my question.

Don't worry about it. But I've never heard Dave refer to an F tuba as an FF tuba.

Remember, though, that you don't own the thread. Sometimes the conversation veers away from the question you asked, just because the folks in the conversation go that way. Remember that this isn't an information service--it's an Internet forum. You pays your nickel and you takes your chances.

Every story I've heard from Yurrop is that people who audition in Germany are expected to have a rotary Bb contrabass tuba in addition to their normal rotary F tuba. German orchestras are more traditional than most, which means that they value those who respect their traditions. Not all their traditions are published, of course.

I would suggest contacting Bob Tucci at his music store in Munich. I'm sure he would be able to advice you on current practice. Here's the link:

http://www.hornboerse.de/lshop,shopstart,,d,,,,,,.htm

Rick "repeating only what he has heard" Denney

Whenever I saw the Besson ads with BBb tubas and Bb tubas that were the same size, I was terribly confused. There were also EEb and Eb tubas in the same catalog.

I vaguely remember from my old Brass Band days that Eb referred to a 3 valve model and EEb was a 4 valve tuba and also generally larger. It followed that it's big brother was a BBb tuba - even though it was at that time usually a 3 valve tuba. Some smaller student model tubas were referred to as Bb tubas.

This was 30 years ago in Australia, and I'm sure that some of our English friends could clarify this.

cambrook wrote:I vaguely remember from my old Brass Band days that Eb referred to a 3 valve model and EEb was a 4 valve tuba and also generally larger. It followed that it's big brother was a BBb tuba - even though it was at that time usually a 3 valve tuba. Some smaller student model tubas were referred to as Bb tubas.

This was 30 years ago in Australia, and I'm sure that some of our English friends could clarify this.

That is still largely the case in the UK, although all the modern BBb I have seen are 4 valve.