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tubashaman wrote:I was chatting with a tubist, and I am used to the CC tubas being a flat whole step fifth valve, however, are there any COMMON modern horns that have a different use of a fifth valve.

If so can you tell me what model and what it does besides the flat whole step

Thanks

7/8 and 9/8 tone are standard lengths.

Greg wrote:that Miraphones used to come with a fifth valve that was the equivalent of a 23 combination. Am I crazy?

No, you aren't crazy. My current Miraphone features the 23 fifth valve.

The idea of different lengths of 5th valve slides is not new.

Early Bill Bell models and some of the older "MW division of Getzen" tubas had interchangeable slides that were actually carried "onboard." The one that I've seen could be set up as a flat half step, flat whole step, or the 2-3 combo found on many of the last generation of Miraphones, in particular.

As was mentioned earlier, the standard 5th valve on Miraphones for years was 2-3 length.

Some B&S tubas (I had a B&S F like this) came with a whole step and a 2-3 slide for the 5th valve. At one time VMI/B&S Culbertson tubas came with two 5th valve slides, too. I'm not sure if they still do or not.

The Getzen G-50 I previously owned had multiple 5th valve configuration options too. I could set it up as a flat half step, flat whole step, or 2-3 length.

I even know of an older Alexander that actually has a 3/4 step 5th valve.

Most tubas being built and offered for sale these days come with the seemingly standardized flat whole step 5th valve slide.

Rest assured, my 1291 also came with only one 5th valve slide. That slide, however, is really fricking long and (at least where I have it set), is only half an inch out for a flat whole step. If you pull it most of the way out, you may get some other useful pitches. I haven't tried it myself.

My 188 has the 2+3 5th valve, and on a C tuba, I really prefer this tuning, but that's just me. On F, on the other hand, I do prefer the flat whole step fifth valve tuning.

I'm looking forward to someday having a fourth and fifth valve. I started learning the G scale last week and those low fingerings on a three-banger create a lot of finger gymnastics- not to mention tonal irregularities...

The Big Ben wrote:I'm looking forward to someday having a fourth and fifth valve. I started learning the G scale last week and those low fingerings on a three-banger create a lot of finger gymnastics- not to mention tonal irregularities...

Assuming you have a BBb tuba and are starting on the first G below the staff, there are only two notes that would normally use the fourth valve (B and C) and none that would use the fifth. Intonation would be much better with the fourth valve. I'm not sure the fingerings are that much easier though.

I had a King 2341 with an added 5th valve from a Miraphone. It was a flat-whole-step 5th valve enabling the player to play pretty-much in tune all the way to the pedal tones, making the instrument fully chromatic throughout its entire range. For example, the 5-4 combination enables one to play low Eb in tune with no slide pulling.

It also included an alternate Miraphone slide for which was a flat half step, this confused me, so I never used it.

The Big Ben wrote:I'm looking forward to someday having a fourth and fifth valve. I started learning the G scale last week and those low fingerings on a three-banger create a lot of finger gymnastics- not to mention tonal irregularities...

If you prefer 3-valve, and don't need anything below 123 low E nat, find yourself an old Besson comp. If you find one with good valves, as I did, it is rugged and superlative in intonation, and you only have those same two notes, C and B nat, to worry about being stuffy. Even though I'm playing my 186 for community concert band, I still prefer my old Besson, leaks and all, which I will get fixed this year.

iiipopes wrote:

The Big Ben wrote:I'm looking forward to someday having a fourth and fifth valve. I started learning the G scale last week and those low fingerings on a three-banger create a lot of finger gymnastics- not to mention tonal irregularities...

If you prefer 3-valve, and don't need anything below 123 low E nat, find yourself an old Besson comp. If you find one with good valves, as I did, it is rugged and superlative in intonation, and you only have those same two notes, C and B nat, to worry about being stuffy. Even though I'm playing my 186 for community concert band, I still prefer my old Besson, leaks and all, which I will get fixed this year.

I'm jus' enjoyin' the nice tone of my three-banger King right now... The problems I have with playing can't be fully solved with another couple o' valves. Only more lessons and practice...We've been doing a lot of work on breathing and playing accents and slurs properly. And playing what's written on the page...

A horn with extra valves will give some options in the future- what brand and kind, I don't know. (I might just play alone or with piano so a Norwegian Star is attractive. Would work in a band, too.) It will be nice to be able to use them down low, that's for sure. My King has a good rep. for intonation but, as I said before, intonation problems are more because of the Trumpet Doofus with his lips on the mouthpiece. If equipment could help, it might be some of those Yamaha euphonium springs folks were raving about earlier....

BTW: It's cool you found a horn you really, really like. Makes it worthy of an overhaul, that it does...

Jeff "Fingers of Fire" Benedict

My community band (not mine, the one I join) owns a very nice B&S F-tuba from behind the Iron Curtain. (It says "Made in GDR" on the leadpipe). Cool horn. Great valves, nice attacks (response) and all... if it weren´t for that 2+3 5th valve. I´m trying to avoid putting on my old "MW46 cool 5th and 6th valve"-record.
I get along fine with the 9/8th valve on my CC-tuba.
On this F-tuba, the tuner tells me the strangest valve combinations to be in tune. None of that will make sense if you talk about fast runs down there.
As we´ll need to have some work done to it (strap rings and lyra holder added) to make it work for a talented young tubist, I´m thinking about recommending to get a new 5th valve slide to turn it into a 9/8th valve.
The kid who´s playing on it found his teacher´s horn with THAT 5th valve much more convenient.

Any comments on why a "3+4" 5th actually can be better on a horn ?

bloke wrote:The purpose of a 5th valve is:

- to make a C or F tuba useable when playing most written music.
- to give an Eb tuba a real low F, so it can be more than a "polka" or "dixie" horn
- to look "cool" on a BBb tuba

A fifth valve on a BBb horn sometimes doesn't even show if it's a rotor on it...you can't see it from far away...

FWIW, there are also five-valve euphoniums, although none are currently in production to my knowledge. I once played in a community band with a fellow who had a beautiful Conn 5-valve double bell. Obviously the 5th valve engaged the second bell. Since all the valves were in a single line on the front of the horn I don't see how one could use the 4th and 5th valves concurrently.

Greg

Greg Bright wrote:FWIW, there are also five-valve euphoniums, although none are currently in production to my knowledge. I once played in a community band with a fellow who had a beautiful Conn 5-valve double bell. Obviously the 5th valve engaged the second bell. Since all the valves were in a single line on the front of the horn I don't see how one could use the 4th and 5th valves concurrently.

Greg

On 5 valve DB euphs, the 5th valve (small bell trigger) is usually operated with the left hand.

Years ago, I spent some time fooling around with a five-valve twin-bell euphonium. Since I didn't know any better, I used my little finger alternately on the fourth and fifth valves. It didn't bother me, as when I used the fifth valve to change over to the smaller bell, I wasn't playing low and didn't need the fourth valve.

It would be interesting to know how people were taught on those twin-bell euphoniums (in addition to which finger goes on what valve).

Cheers,
Allen

Cerveny still makes non-double-bell 5 valve Euphs, although they are the rotary-type. Like this:
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... p_741g.htm

They even make C euphs with 5 valves. Interesting . . .

Allen wrote:It would be interesting to know how people were taught on those twin-bell euphoniums (in addition to which finger goes on what valve).

I've always seen players use the forefinger of their left hand on the bell switch valve. I've never seen players use their left hand for the fourth valve on front-action instruments, even those who normally play 3+1 setups.

Rick "whose sample is limited to Army conference performances" Denney

Bob1062 wrote:

Greg Bright wrote:FWIW, there are also five-valve euphoniums, although none are currently in production to my knowledge.

Miraphone, Cerveny, and possibly MW and some others make 5 valved rotary tenor euph/tubas.

I think the Alexander 151 is still available also.

Re: no 5-valvers in production.

Guess I've been out of the loop too long. Just been blissfully playing my lone Willson these past 34 years.

Greg