TubeNet

I picked up a 70s vintage Besson compensating threefer Eb from our favorite website recently. Are the fingerings the same as a noncompensating three valve? They seem to be. The scale is nice but stops dead at low A (1-2-3) - no falsies at all and the pedal Eb speaks reluctantly. The good news is there is none of the stuffiness I have heard about with the comp system.

The pictures and description did not indicate this was a comp horn, so it was a suprise to see the extra tubing. Funny thing is the comp system doesn't really seem to bring much to the party - the intonation seems just a little better than the typical three banger. This thing is the most solidly constructed horn I have ever seen - it weighs about 1.5 times what you think it would. It has a nice German-type taper bell (looks Mirafonish) instead of a wide flare. There is still plenty of compression in the valves which surpised me - the valve plating is still all there, so it must have been thick or redone at some point. For anyone still reading this who wants a pic, holler.

Eric "ignorant about compensators" L.

I want one. I must have missed this auction.

Yes, all fingerings are the same. The purpose of the compensating loops is to add the extra tubing needed so multi-valve combinations, especially 1-3 and 123, don't play sharp, and as with top-valve configurations its basically impossible to pull slides to tune, like riding the 1st valve slide as is conventional with a rotary or piston front valve instrument.

The added benefit of a comp is you can play notes that usually use 12 and have to be lipped down as 3 alone and have them perfectly in tune, because since the comp circuit adds the necessary tubing for combinations, you don't have to pull 3 to get 23 in tune, which on conventional instruments causes 3 alone to be flat.

Even though you sacrifice low range, only being a 3-valve, by its design, an 3-valve comp is theoretically the most in tune brass configuration:

http://www.tuba.com/e/tuning_a_tuba.htm

1. re: iiipopes: 3V comp "most in tune" -- yes this was discussed quite a while ago, iirc, on the "old" TubeNet. I think I remember one opinion was that a 3V compensator with a 4th valve that was NOT included in the compensation network (simply dropping the horn a perfect 4th in pitch) might be an even better option than the typical 4V compensation scheme.

2. re: Belltrouble: Compensating baritones / euphoniums -- if you have a COMPENSATING 3V baritone, then it will automatically correct the pitch for certain valve combinations. (not all 3V Bb baritones are compensating instruments) The 4V compensating instruments (baritiones?, euphoniums, tubas) use the same principle but the compensation scheme does not become active unless the 4th valve is pressed. So the benefits that come from the 3V compensated instruments are a little different than the 4V compensated instruments. (But then of course, when you play 2,4 instead if 1,2,3 you DO then get the benefit on the 4V compensator, so maybe my point is moot.)

3. How does this work? I know how the 4V compensation scheme works, so I will assume it is the same principle for the 3V and I will explain the 3V (previous poster's question) based on this belief. I am certain that if I am incorrect, several well-intentioned musicians will politely flame .... er ... correct me.

The valves have two parallel sets of air passages through them -- I'll call these the "top" and "bottom" paths. Let's assume for this explanation that the normal air path (the path you would have with a non-comp 3V) goes through the "top" path.

The air path for the 3rd valve tuning slide (or for a 4V compensator this would be the 4th valve) returns to the 3rd valve by passing through the BOTTOM path that runs through valve body 1 and valve body 2. The "external" amount of 3rd valve tuning slide is shortened by the length of the path that goes through the valve block.

Now, when valves 1 and 2 are NOT depressed, but 3rd valve is, the air flows through the external 3rd valve tubing and returns through the bottom (compensating) path through valves 1 and 2, DIRECTLY -- no "compensation" to the length of the path.

But along the "bottom" air passage through valves 1 and 2 are an ADDITIONAL external tuning slide for each valve -- maybe very short for 2nd valve. IF 3rd valve is depressed AND valve 1 is depressed, then the return path for the 3rd valve goes through 1) the external 3rd valve tuning slide, 2) through valve bodies 1 and 2, and 3) also through the "compensating" tuning slide attached to the bottom air passage for valve 1 -- thereby adding extra total length to the vibrating air column.

The result is that the compensating tuning slide for valve 1 is the correct amount of added tubing to allow 1+3 to be correctly in tune.

If you play 2,3 then the small extra length of tubing for valve 2 allows this combination to also be properly in tune.

1,2,3 should also be perfectly in tune. Note, this is something that the 4V compensators cannot do, because their compensation strategy is focused on proper correction for 1+4, 2+4 and 3+4 combinations. So when you add TWO valves along with valve 4, you are missing a bit of correction.

I hope that is somewhat clear -- it is a bit difficult to describe with words. Try to find an actual instrument and look at it closely. You should be able to figure out how it works if my explanation was not clear.

Cheers,

Dave Werden's website has the best interactive description and explanation as to how the Patented Blaikley Automatic Compensating Systems works for both euph and tuba:

http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-comp.cfm
http://www.dwerden.com/intonation/

The three-valve comp is basically the same, using the 3rd as the return back through the valve block instead of the 4th, so you can use the same diagram, and just disregard one of the top valves to see how a 3-valve comp works.

Belltrouble wrote:Sounds like you got a Besson New Standard instrument,right?

15" bell,tank like material and small shank mouthpiece........

Kurt, no model is indicated on the bell, but your description is accurate.

iiip - thanks for the clarification on the fingerings. As far as the tuning, since I am too dumb to figure out that chart, I will take the usual approach - tune open, tune 2, tune 1, tune 1-2, tune 2-3, etc., then listen and learn.

There was minimal interest in the auction (only two bidders sniping in the final seconds) which surprised me, since it was a nice horn with a new Tuxedo gig bag and Besson mouthpiece for about what the beat-up old Conns, etc. go for with no accessories.

Eric "tin ear" L.

WakinAZ wrote:iiip - thanks for the clarification on the fingerings. As far as the tuning, since I am too dumb to figure out that chart, I will take the usual approach - tune open, tune 2, tune 1, tune 1-2, tune 2-3, etc., then listen and learn.

That's the whole point of a comp. You don't have to do that: tune open and each valve individually for its particular pitch, and the comp loops take care of the rest for the valve combinations.

Use 3 alone instead of 12 unless you need alternate interval or trill fingerings.

OK, you say nothing is that simple? Yes, on my BBb it is! Remember, by the time your Eb was made, B&H and Besson had at that point literally a century to have gotten it right, and for those few years from the mid 1960's to the late 1970's, before everyone thought they needed larger bells and notes so low in the trenches you can feel the individual vibrations, they did.

Some of the old 3-valve Eb compers were pretty decent. Older brass band literature pretty much stayed low F# (concert A) and above, but newer literature seems to assume that you'll have a 4-valve tuba.

My experience with the 3-valve compensatiing Besson Eb tubas has no usable false tones, so that gap between low F# (concert A) and low C (concert Eb) isn't really reachable with these old tubas.

Many of the pre-WWII Eb Bessons were constructed for high pitch (roughly A4=457 Hz) and often have had their main tuning slides extended to reach A4=440 Hz tuning. I'd stay away from these--they often have intonation issues.

iiipopes wrote:tune open and each valve individually for its particular pitch, and the comp loops take care of the rest for the valve combinations.

Use 3 alone instead of 12 unless you need alternate interval or trill fingerings.

That's what I needed - a Cliff's Notes to tuning a comp horn. I told you I ain't that bright. Thanks.

Eric "catching on" L.

Chuck(G) wrote:Some of the old 3-valve Eb compers were pretty decent. Older brass band literature pretty much stayed low F# (concert A) and above, but newer literature seems to assume that you'll have a 4-valve tuba.

My experience with the 3-valve compensatiing Besson Eb tubas has no usable false tones, so that gap between low F# (concert A) and low C (concert Eb) isn't really reachable with these old tubas.

Many of the pre-WWII Eb Bessons were constructed for high pitch (roughly A4=457 Hz) and often have had their main tuning slides extended to reach A4=440 Hz tuning. I'd stay away from these--they often have intonation issues.

What he said. Also goes for BBb. Why anyone in a band environment, and especially if you play outdoors, would write anything lower than concert E nat for a BBb is beyond me. Because sound dissipates geometrically, and required air also increases geometrically, it is counterproductive to try to go lower.

The BBb doesn't have any useable false tones, either. I have not figured out why, when others, such as a Conn 14k souzy have them so well you would think they're valved noted.

And definitely stay away from the converted instruments, as the profile ratio of conical to cylindrical is changed, and intonation along with it.

My Besson is a 1970s vintage, so the pitch thing is not a concern. It is not converted - all the tubing is original. And the false tones are definitely MIA...no big deal since this is my starter Eb anyway.

Eric "who knows there will be limitations with a $500 tuba" L.

When you're ready to move along, my son will be old enough to need a tuba in middle school here in a few years. Call me.

Bob1062 wrote:

iiipopes wrote:Why anyone in a band environment, and especially if you play outdoors, would write anything lower than concert E nat for a BBb is beyond me. Because sound dissipates geometrically, and required air also increases geometrically, it is counterproductive to try to go lower.

huh?!?

It's like a square. A square of a certain size is one unit long and wide, and has the area of one square unit and, if extended in three dimensions, one cubic unit. Double the one side, and it is two square units long, but that makes four square units in area, not two, and eight cubic units in volume, not four.

Each octave down is half the frequency, but (skipping the calculus and physics as to why) also has only half the energy as well. Moreover, our ears become less sensitive as we descend in pitch. So to make noticable dynamic differences at the lowest notes, you have to work at least eight times as hard as the octave above.

Try this: play something like a low F 4 ledger lines down at a mf or f dynamic and see how long you can hold it. then do the same thing with just on the bottom of the staff F, being careful to match dynamic and tone, and not get perceptively louder. I think you'll find you can hold that upper F a lot longer.

I wasn't talking necessarily about Eb. I was talking more about multiple ledger lines below the staff into the near pedal, false pedal, and true pedal regions of BBb as well as Eb.

In fact, seeing this kind of stuff in BB literature seems to be more common. This is from the Bb bass part of "Braveheart":



Why wouldn't playing concert C and G instead of C in octaves wouldn't be just as effective?

Unless you balanced it just right, like 2 or 3 BBb's on the C and one BBb or Eb on the G, or similar proportions for smaller or larger ensembles, it could get really muddy really quickly.

If you search the old TubeNet for posts from Dr. Young, I believe you will find information about the amount of "fundamental" energy contained in various notes. It is also possible that Rick Denny has information about this -- I haven't visited his web page for quite some time.

IIRC, the lower in pitch you go (below the 2nd harmonic -- i.e. BBb on a BBb tuba -- an octave above the pedal note in the key of the tuba), you get dramatically less energy in the fundamental pitch. You get more energy in the upper harmonics, resulting from the fact that the note is getting closer to a series of "pops" instead of a smooth note. Each flap of the lip creates an abundance of higher harmonic energy, but the fundamental becomes lost.

As a result, "dropping octaves" can cause the instrument to become much harder to hear in the audience -- and outdoors it is already harder to hear anyway.

It may be fun, but the question to ask is whether it has any positive, musical benefit to those in the audience. A former resident expert said, "nope." And Dr. Fred Young's credentials were amazing!

I suppose you could invite a friend with a good ear to an ensemble practice and have half of the tuba section drop the octave at the end of a piece -- and then NOT do so the next time. See what the impression is from the audience.

Scientifically, you are losing energy in a region of the "operation" of the horn where it's already harder to put out sustained volume.

That's what the experts have said,

iiipopes wrote:Unless you balanced it just right, like 2 or 3 BBb's on the C and one BBb or Eb on the G, or similar proportions for smaller or larger ensembles, it could get really muddy really quickly.

My point is that the G at 98 Hz and the C at 65.4 Hz beat to create a 32.7 Hz low C "resultant" with perhaps as much energy as the original low C.

Instead, in this piece, the arranger has the Eb basses playing (in unison) the same C that the upper Bb bass is playing.

OK here are some pics. BTW does anyone know a good source for felts for these horns? S/N is 565839 if anyone wants to tell me how old it really is - couldn't find anything worthwhile on MusicTrader.






Eric "not the greatest photographer" L.

Yes, indeed. They are called difference tones or "Tartini's" tones, from the guy who first described them. But if you're not exactly on pitch and can hold it steady, like a pipe organ does to synthesize a 32' stop when there is insufficient space or height for true 32' pipes, that difference tone can wobble badly, and detract from the solidity of the group rather than reinforce it. Another technical word for the effect is called heterodyning.

One reason imperfect tuning detracts is that not only are difference tones created, but additive tones from both the respective fundamentals as well as each individual's overtones are also formed. If they're not right on pitch, they will definitely screw up the pitch and tuning of the ensemble as a whole.

Hemholz also discusses them at length in his historical tome, "On the Sensation of Tone."

Edit -- I took too long posting, and the pictures posted first. Nice tuba. Damn, I wish I had known about that auction, and I was even looking at the time -- I wonder how I missed it?!

iiipopes wrote:Nice tuba. Damn, I wish I had known about that auction, and I was even looking at the time -- I wonder how I missed it?!

heh, heh, heh. If I decide Eb is something I want to pursue long term in addition to BBb, I will probably move on to a 4v eventually and sell this one. I don't really miss the fourth valve that much on my contrabass horn, but its absence seems to be much more of a drawback on a bass tuba. Patience, iiip.

Eric "who thinks this tuba looks better the farther away from it you get (note moderate to heavy green corrosion in valve area)" L.